The Unteachables Podcast

#37: What Good Classroom Management Can't Exist Without: A Chat with Marie Gentles on Teacher Capacity, Perception, and Felt Safety.

• Claire English • Season 4 • Episode 37

Share episode

On today’s episode I have the pleasure of talking to Marie Gentles, you might know her best as the expert in BBC documentaries Don’t Exclude Me and Helping our Teens, and now as the author of the book Gentles Guidance: How to Understand, Inspire and Empower Your Kids which has been recently published in June this year. She has also developed Gentle Guidance, where she delivers her own digital Behaviour Training Programme for schools/services and families.  To say that this woman is moving mountains in this space is an understatement.

So… when this incredible woman talks about what we need to be doing in the classroom to best support our young people, we all need to be listening, and what a privilege it was to be able to talk about some really important things in the educational space. 

In this episode:

  • We discuss the importance of felt safety (and how we can provide that for our young people).
  • We debunk some of the common (but understandable) assumptions we can make about the students who display the most challenging behaviours.
  • Marie shares a crucial strategy on how teachers can care for themselves first, so they have the capacity to better support their students.
  • + a whole range of other valuable bits and bobs!

Where to go to get further support from Marie:

Website: www.gentlesguidance.com

Course: gentlesguidance.thinkific.com

Book: Gentle Guidance - How to Understand, Inspire and

Empower you Kids

TV Documentaries: BBC iPlayer: Helping our Teens, Don’t Exclude Me.


Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!

JOIN MY FREE LIVE TRAINING: TURN YOUR TEACHING INTO A CLASSROOM MANAGEMENT MACHINE

RESOURCES AND MORE SUPPORT:

Connect with me:


Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Unteachables podcast. I'm your host, claire, and I am absolutely no stranger to the challenges and let's face it, sometimes carnage of being a teacher. And if you found yourself you're listening with me I'd say that you might know a bit about that as well, because being a teacher is friggin hard, and this podcast is dedicated to making you feel a hell of a lot less alone, whilst giving you the knowledge, support and strategies that you need to not just survive the chaos of being a teacher but truly thrive. Think about it as getting a weekly dose of relatable, actionable and, most importantly, enjoyable professional learning straight into your ears. So hit the subscribe button, download me for your commute and let's get into it.

Speaker 1:

Hello everyone, welcome back to another season of the Unteachables podcast. Boy, isn't it nice to be back. It feels like it's been so long, and the reason being I've just finished my book. I had to really focus in on that for a period of time, while that was kind of like getting wrapped up. I have gone back to work after maternity leave, so I've just had everything going on at once, so I just had to put a bit of a pause on the podcast. But it's back and I'm really excited and if you're tuning in for the first time, I just want to quickly reintroduce myself. I'm Claire, I'm a secondary teacher, I'm a senior leader and I've turned well now as well, as I do it all kind of at the same time. But I'm a podcaster, I'm a content creator, a teacher educator, I run training programs. I am now an author, which I absolutely can't believe I'm saying. I'm an educational consultant and just a bunch of other little bits and bobs that I've kind of come across doing in the time that I've been running the Unteachables Academy. And if you ask me why I do this work, it's just because I have an unwavering belief that if we want to champion our students all of them, not just those who display really challenging behaviors we must first champion teachers. You're the bread and butter of what we do here in the classroom and you just deserve access to relevant and actionable support, because classroom management is a really lonely thing. Sometimes it can be so disempowering, it can be obviously really challenging and it shouldn't be that way. You should have access to as much support as possible.

Speaker 1:

So on today's episode, I feel like I'm coming back with a bang because I had the pleasure of talking to Marie Gentles. You might know her best as the expert in the two BBC documentaries Don't Exclude Me and the most recent one, helping Our Teens, so she's a little bit of a celebrity in the education space, and now as the author of the book Gentles Guidance how to Understand, inspire and Empower your Kids. That was just recently published in June this year, so it's incredibly relevant. She also developed Gentles Guidance, where she delivers her own digital behavior training program for schools and services and families. To say this woman is moving mountains in this space is an absolute understatement. But what you might not know about Marie is the absolute wealth of knowledge and experience that precedes all of that. She's a living, breathing representation of the kind of leading from the front support that teachers do need and deserve, especially when it comes to classroom management, something that's so lacking. She has over 20 years of experience in education and, after working in the mainstream sector here in London for 10 years something that's challenging in itself she began working in a pupil referral unit and social, emotional, mental health provisions much like myself where she became the deputy and then head teacher of the provision, and the data speaks for itself with her approach. In 2010, marie was appointed the strategic lead for a London borrower's nurture group project and set up a nurture group model to serve the entire borrower the first of its kind nationally and it had so much success in modifying pupils behavior and it significantly reduced the rate of permanent exclusions. There was a 95 to 100 percent success rate year upon year. And because of this work and all of her contributions, she was an award and an OBE for a services to education in 2020. And for those who don't know, because you're not UK based, it is an order of the British Empire which acknowledges significant contributions of service. So that's a pretty big deal of you know somebody that's been working in the education space.

Speaker 1:

I don't usually do really long introductions like this, but I really wanted to give some context as to why, when this incredible woman talks about what we need to be doing in the classroom to best support our young people and ourselves, I think we all need to be listening. And what a friggin privilege it was to be able to talk about some really important things with Marie. So let's just crack into the episode. Hello everybody, I am Claire.

Speaker 1:

I'm the host of the Unteachables podcast and, as you already know from the introduction, I'm here with the incredible Marie Gentles. Good morning, marie. Good morning, thank you for having me and thank you for being here. It is such a treat being able to have you on the podcast, and not just because you are, like, such an expert in what you do, but because I think we just said like we're so aligned in our values about education and I think you're a bit of a superstar in the space. I always find it really nerdy when people come onto my podcast and I'm like stuff, any kind of movie stars, like people like you who are doing this work. You know, you're my kind of like little fangirl moment, so it's just really nice to be able to talk to you. If there are people listening who have never heard of you, would you be able to give them a quick rundown of who you are and what your work is?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely so. I qualified as a teacher many years ago. I now work as a behavioral expert and an educational consultant and within that role I support young people, family, schools and organisations with children and young people who are displaying emotional and behavioural needs or issues for one reason or another, which I'm sure we'll get into throughout the rest of the morning Brilliant, and I think that was a very modest introduction of yourself, if you haven't, and we'll talk about it at the end anyway, all the things that you've done.

Speaker 1:

But one of the ways that I first came into contact with your work was through your documentary.

Speaker 1:

Like not many people can say, I've got a BBC documentary and like one of the things that I love about your work right other than the fact that you know obviously we're really aligned with our approaches is your values in leadership as well and how you work with the schools themselves, like in the way that you work with them on the documentary, and obviously you do more work than you. We just see on that. But one of the things you said in the documentary was you know, I work alongside schools because it's not about shaming any teacher. We're just doing the best that we can and that is something that I'm so passionate about because we don't get taught this stuff and it's so complex, it's so complicated and teachers really are like you don't get into the profession because you hate kids, and I know that there are some teachers who are a bit jaded, but you don't get into the profession to do that. But I just love your approach to actually working with educators as well.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I think this is such an important point and this is where, again, you and I are so aligned. So I know you talk about this a lot, but I spent four years at university doing my teaching degree and I honestly cannot remember anything I did around behaviour support. I can't remember it. I mean a lot within four years. So, you know, whilst I think we all recognise that there needs to be changes there are always, will, there's always going to be something that needs to be developed and changed, etc. I also think that we have to look at why, why do we have a number of teachers or senior leaders or schools etc. Who maybe don't fully understand how to support these young people or you know, who are getting so overwhelmed or so burnt out? And we need to look right back to the beginning and think about well, does this start from teacher training, what's missing and how can we support? Support the teachers within the school or the staff within the school, as well as the parents and carers and, obviously, the young people as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely so funny. You said that because in my book I start one. Oh no, I start the whole book. My introduction for the whole book is about I spent five years at university.

Speaker 1:

I did two degrees, and I talk about the 20 minutes that I can remember ever being taught about classroom management. And that 20 minutes was a bit of a joke. It was like the like the tutor setting up the front going right, if you've got kids that don't know what they're doing or they're not on board with what you're doing, you just need to do this. And he went around and he like just pointed, like he stood over them and he's like you just give them the look and then you point, point, point, point, point and he like bashed his finger against people's books as he was walking around and that is all I remember about classroom management. I talk about that in the introduction to the book because it's so important for us to remember that we're just not prepared for all of the challenges that we end up facing, and it is like one of the biggest challenges of the profession.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, totally. And do you know what else? I think I think for people like myself, you know, often people like, wow, marie, look what you've done, and I know a lot of it. It is I have done a lot, but I know a lot of it is because I've done the documentaries and, you know, written a book and some other things that I've done. But I also think it's so important to say I have been there. I was a newly qualified teacher. I was that middle leader. I was also a senior leader. You know I've been there in the position and it didn't I didn't, you know, come into the profession with all this knowledge and expertise. I had to build it up over time and I just think it's just important to say that because I think we totally understand what it's like to do the job and the challenges of the job, but also, on the bright side, how to manage those challenges. So actually you can feel like you really enjoy doing what you're doing is possible.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, going back to that idea of enjoyment, I think, especially with low level behaviors, I think teachers are losing that enjoyment because they're so frustrated. And I still find it challenging. I think that's important to say. It is a challenging job. You know, I'm a senior leader. I still teach English. I still find days really, really challenging because at the end of the day, no one is all over it. No matter how experienced you are, how could spend all day having a coffee talking to you about all things classroom management.

Speaker 1:

But I thought it'd be really interesting for us to kind of talk about some of the patterns of thinking teachers can slip into when it comes to working with challenging behaviors. And the reason I wanted to do this is because these are the kind of things that perpetuate the cycle of behavior. And it's not just about supporting the students and about breaking that cycle for the young people that we work with, but it's for the teacher as well. As you said, it's about making sure that we're able to do the job that we want to do it. We got into the profession, we want to do this. We didn't get into it for the pay, we certainly didn't do that and then we get into the profession and it's just really tough. So these are the kind of things that can empower everyone.

Speaker 1:

I think if we discuss them and kind of debunk them a little bit, does that sound all right? Yeah, absolutely One of the things that I hear a lot. I think you would as well. In our work we do we work with teachers we hear a lot of these things. But a lot of the things we hear they don't want to be here, they're lazy, they don't care about their learning. What do you think about that particular kind of assumption that we can make about our young people?

Speaker 2:

I think, first of all, I have a phrase. We have lots of phrases, but one of them is no blame, no shame. So it's about not blaming or shaming ourselves or anyone else. Like you said at the beginning, we're all just doing the best we can from where we are. So the first thing I wanna say is that I totally understand where those phrases come from and that's why I keep saying no blame, no shame, because I get when you've got a whole class and you have these young people and you've shown up, thinking to yourself but I wanna be here, I want to help you and look at what you're presenting back to me. I totally understand where that mindset comes from. But another phrase I have is that behavior support is a mindset first, and it's not a list of strategies. So we can you and I, claire, we can give many, many support strategies for adults, supporting young people, which we know are effective. We've done consistently, and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2:

However, if we don't have the mindset behind the implementation of those strategies, it will fall flat. And so the first thing I think I think is really, really important is perception. So if we are perceiving a young person as really lazy which is totally understandable. I'm sure we've all been there to in some way shape or form. But if we're perceiving them as really lazy, then what will happen is our thoughts around them will be that's such a lazy child, I've worked so hard to plan this lesson and now they're disrupting my lesson or not doing anything. And then I talk about thought, feeling, action and then our feelings. I know you're familiar, claire. Our feelings will be around kind of overwhelm, frustration, et cetera. And so our action may then be to say to that young person if you don't want to be here, then you shouldn't be here then or we'll take your head off the table. You know, I've worked really hard at whatever it may be.

Speaker 2:

Whereas if we change our perception, which is changing how we perceive the behavior, instead we look what's going on behind the behavior, why, so that I always say just use the word why. You know why. There's always a reason for everything. Every single behavior for child or adult is a communication. So why are they showing up that way? You know, it could be as simple as environmental factors, tiredness, you know, not eating enough, but it also could be so many other things. It could be linked to a need diagnosed, undiagnosed, the fact that they're aged, the fact that they're just a young person, need to understand about how the brain works. You know, I just think to myself that it's normal and understandable to have these mindsets. But if we're going to really support these young people long term, we've got to change our perception of them first and understand why we think what we do and understand why they're behaving as they are. And that's the first step, I believe.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So the students are acting lazy. They're, you know. They don't want to be there, they don't care all the rest of it how they're presenting. We do that as well and we expect compassion for those times. But we don't give that to our young people because of the context or whatever it might be. The amount of times I could have said to myself in the last week oh Claire, just so freaking lazy Am I, or am I just burnt the hell out? Am I just exhausted, you know? And we don't see our students through that same lens. And I think it's really important to start seeing them through that lens. Like there's human beings in this space with us and they're tired. They might not understand, you know. Like providing them with the same compassion that we would expect for ourselves, I think is really important.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, and do you know what I love? This is why I'm so excited to speak to you today, because professionals like ourselves are all saying the same thing. We just have different ways of delivering it, different words, different examples, but ultimately we're all saying the same thing. You know, that was a brilliant example you just talked about. As an adult, you know compassion, and I've just talked about behaviour as communication and looking at the why. We're both saying the exact same thing and it's just. This is why it's so important to have these conversations, because everyone learns differently, not just the young people, and so different things can click for different people, and I just think it's so important.

Speaker 2:

I always talk about the reflection or the similarities between all of us as humans, whether adult or child, and, like you've just said, you know we still get. If you're a driver, you might get frustrated on the road. You know we do not walk around calm, happy, fully alert, totally taken in what someone is saying to us 24, seven. We do not do that as adults, so we cannot expect that from the young people in that way. But if it's a consistent issue, we need to look at what's going on for that young person and how can I adequately support them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to be this morning, which leads me into my next thing, but you posted about sensory issues this morning and it, you know again, it's all about seeing the why beneath it. You're talking about the fact that, like, sensory issues can often present or be seen as defined whatever it might be. And you said this doesn't mean that all students, all children who have oppositional behaviors, have sensory issues. But it's about becoming curious and keeping that in our minds and breaking those patterns of thinking. And it's so true because often I post about things and I say we need to flip our thinking on this, that and the other, and people will come back and say, oh, but sometimes it is that, yes, sometimes it is that, but it's about the curiosity, it's about the why, it's about being able to dig deeper and everything you're saying it's about that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think sometimes it can feel quite overwhelming because it can feel like there isn't one blanket rule for all. And often people can think people who support young people can think how am I supposed to personalize this for every single young person when I've got all of these things to do and they've got all these differing needs? And what I say is that you're absolutely right, there is no one way for every single young person, however universally. If you think about just what we need as humans, regardless of need, regardless of age, we all need and we all deserve to feel emotionally safe and we all need and deserve to feel an element of control within our lives as well. And if we have those feelings of emotional safety and connection in one way shape or form and that kind of safe control, every single human needs that. So when we kind of, when we strip things apart and then we start to look at the why, if we can have a baseline where what we're providing for the young people covers emotional safety, it covers emotional connection and it covers safe control every single young person needs that and if we can create environments within schools or home settings that has that baseline, then on top of that. You can personalise things for individual students and it takes a while.

Speaker 2:

I'm saying this all casually now after years and years and years of putting this into practice, so now it just like second nature to me, but there was a point where I had to really every single time think about am I doing this and I need to remember this? But after a while it becomes part of who you are and just what you do, rather than something additional you have to remember. But that takes time and practice, which is why these conversations are important, because no one's alone. You know we have been there but it's really important to say yeah it wasn't cool.

Speaker 1:

So you go from being unconsciously unskilled and then you go through the process and eventually you become unconsciously skilled and you've hardwired all of those things. So now when I'm planning a lesson, I'm embedding things that foster that felt safety. I'm embedding all of the routines. I do a starter activity. In the same way, I do all of the same things every lesson to create a net under every single student in that room. So when they walk into the room they know that they'll be able to succeed in something, they'll know that things are really clear, they'll know that things are really predictable and they'll know that they can predict what I'm gonna be like.

Speaker 1:

But all of that, as you said, it's just I see it as like a net that you have to weave together and it takes a long time to weave that net and things still slip through. But you need to create as much as possible and that's where the low level behavior kind of things come in, because they're not something really tangible all the time either. Is it really hard to kind of nail down what to do with low level behaviors? But that is where that comes in. That net should catch all of those things and then you can spend the time on the really specific behaviors that you need to spend time on the kids.

Speaker 2:

Like Julia was it in yeah, yeah, it was beautiful and I think that's the biggest feedback I got was from that one liner in the documentary, which obviously I was just doing organically, but it touched so many people when I had said to her there's nothing wrong with you, yeah, and that is one of the reasons for the main reason why I wanted to do the documentary. Just because you have this access to this platform that can reach millions, and if it means you can make someone stop and think or they might think differently, even if it's just for a moment, that's just invaluable in terms of how we can then go on and support these young people. And one more thing from what you said, because I think it's so important, when you talked about the net, which I just think is just brilliant. That's exactly it, and we've all got different ways of creating that net for these young people. And I talk about you know that and I know you do too, claire. You talk about you know the routines, boundaries, expectations, language, attachment, all of those things because it provides internally, emotional, emotionally for the young people, emotional security, safety, consistency. That's why we do those things. But I just wanted to also mention that it's it's it's we have to get to the point where it's expected that the young people are going to do things, even when you've got the net every single day and you're being consistent. Our brains are still developing.

Speaker 2:

As you mentioned the age 25, not too long ago up until the age of 25. These young people, that the part of their brain that kicks in, is not the rational part, is not even fully developed, is the last part of the brain to develop from kind of 25. And so for them they're kind of impulsiveness part of the brain you know that part is going to kick in because that's their brain is literally still developing. So we have to try and get to a point where we've got on that we've got our structures and we're feeling okay about the job that we're doing, some days more stressful, etc. But there's also a perception around we are never going to get to a point of perfection. It doesn't exist. So I always say progression, not perfection. Look for progression, not perfection, and incremental, tiny, step by step progress and it keeps everybody going and feeling a bit better about the day to day supporting these brilliant young people who could be quite challenging sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we don't control their behaviors. And we can put everything in place, but we don't have that ultimate control. Most people struggle to control their own behavior sometimes, let alone controlling everybody else's behavior around them, and 30 in a room. So we'll never get to that point. We'll never get to that place. And that brings me on to the next one that they're choosing to misbehave.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, oh yes, oh gosh, this is a big one. So I think that this is so, so, so, so, so, so common and is totally understandable, and I think that what's important is I think we can get lost in. You know people, we can have a debate, someone could say no, which is? I spoke into a head teacher a while back and she was absolutely adamant and she was saying no. So these young people? You know that. She was a secondary school head teacher and she was saying these young people, they are choosing particular behaviors and this is how it is, and I've been in this profession for X amount of years and I had a slightly different perspective and we could have argued back and forth, but in the end, what I said to her was it doesn't make sense arguing back and forth. What makes sense is we look at the common ground and we look at what we want for these young people, so even if we feel that they're choosing it. So that's not my perspective. So my perspective is yes, sometimes they can push, push the push the boundaries and etc. But I also believe this is part of the growing up and when I think back, I did the same on the so forth. However, we also need to just look at why whether we believe they are or they are why, why are they doing it? So you might have a really simple answer which is well, you know they're just teenagers or they're just toddlers or whatever age that young person is you're supporting. So it could be well actually they have this underlying need, diagnosed or undiagnosed, and I understand what that need looks like on paper, but actually what does that look like in real life? How does that actually present every single day and when you can get that understanding, everything changes, like I said, perception, everything changes when you can look at what.

Speaker 2:

Let's take the documentary, because you mentioned Jalia, for example. It was really hard for some of those staff members to look at her and see a young girl, a really nice young girl who wants to do her best and is trying her best, and I totally understood that some of that stuff was on camera, some of it was off camera. The conversations that I had with them and it was really hard for them to see that because she was very verbally aggressive. You know her presence was really big and quite intimidating sometime. Totally get it. She also perceived her as okay.

Speaker 2:

I understand she's got ADHD and a number of other diagnosis. And when we understand what that looks like and when we really understand what that means, what that, what that means in terms of her brain structure, what that means in terms of her impulsiveness, what that means in terms of how her brain processes things, when we can perceive it in that way, everything about that changes. It doesn't make the behavior acceptable. It doesn't mean we condone it, but it means that the way that we support her changes, because then we see it as a need and then we can begin to meet with her, which helps to modify those behaviors over time. You can't get rid of the HD, and we wouldn't get it and we wouldn't want to, but what we can do is support those behaviors to not reoccur in the same way as they were occurring before.

Speaker 1:

I remember you saying to her you know, when we get angry, like what happens in our body when we get angry and it just makes me think of like the whole idea that kids behave well when they have the skills to and it is about skill, not will, and with her it was so glaringly obvious that it was about that because she really she didn't want another placement to fall through.

Speaker 1:

She didn't want to have to leave another like score. She wanted to build those connections with people. She just didn't know how to and I think there was a lot of her having a lot of will to do that. But she was really struggling with the skill she had, which is incredibly sad and she was choosing to meet her needs in the best ways that she knew how. In that moment she wasn't choosing to be naughty, but she was choosing. Of course we were all making choices and I'm a big fan of choice, choice theory but our choices are driven by the way that we can best meet our needs in that in any given time and if we don't have the alternative for that it comes out. Of course we're gonna come out in aggressive behaviour or anger or all the rest of it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely, absolutely, I think. I just want to quickly mention one other person in the documentary as well. I think it's important Oliver. He was in year seven at the time. He's in year eight now.

Speaker 2:

Diagnosis of autism and we saw on the documentary when he was going to be suspended again for a period of time after an incident with. We didn't see the incident on the documentary but we saw it, the aftermath, and it was so interesting because for him he had pushed a couple of teachers out of the doorway. But when I did training and things for the school as well throughout, and it was so interesting to be able to Teach around the fact that that behaviour were not condoning, that we're not condoning pushing someone, and that work was done with him. He's doing brilliantly now, which is so amazing. But the reason why he's doing brilliantly is because there is a newfound understanding of his need. So when he was in this room where the adults believed that you know, if we don't have him in this room it could be dangerous and all the rest of it, now they understand that actually in that moment what was going on for him is something could changed in that morning. He didn't know what was coming next. His emotional certainty was gone. Usually I know what's coming next and that makes me feel emotionally safe and contained. That had gone. So now I'm feeling vulnerable and anxious and all over the rest, which is leading to these undesirable behaviors.

Speaker 2:

So instead of just look at the behavior and think, oh my gosh, how do we stop or fix that? Now the adults are looking at his needs and understanding. Oh, he has a need when something changes. Sometimes we can't pre-warn him, but if we let him know as soon as possible, because that reduces his anxiety and stress, when I know what's coming next Because that is part of how his brain works when I can do that, then I feel better. So then my actions look different. So this goes back to what I was talking about thought-feeling action we got. We've got to get to the need what's the what's the reason behind these behaviors and meet that need. It's just transformative, but it does take time, of course.

Speaker 1:

Do you not see them more transformative in that whole scenario the fact that he then knows that the teachers that he'll come into contact with will care to look for the why, that they will be thinking, okay, how is he going today? Has he had an okay morning? Is there something changing? The fact that he's got people that are looking out for him and his needs, so he knows that he's, he's kind of held in that way? That's transformative. Even if they mess it up one day and they change something, they forget to tell him they've got that Boy held, you know.

Speaker 1:

So I think that even just the act of us trying are very, very best with these young people. We're gonna have days where we're gonna mess it up, like I still remember. It's a completely different situation, but I remember having a Student in my class when I was first teaching and she had vision impairment and I forgot to make Arrangements for her that day and I felt so bad. But we're not perfect and we have so many things going on. I apologize, we moved on.

Speaker 1:

But the fact that the teachers of that school are trying to hold him, and he knows that, and I think that's a beautiful thing in itself. So these students obviously disrupting the class, they disrupting the learning, and a lot of what I've gotten before is that they just shouldn't be in the class because it's not fair on the rest of the students who want to be there. They want to learn and again, I love that every single time you talk about one of these assumptions that we make you say is understandable, because it is understandable. We're doing the best that we can under incredible pressures and what we're measured against at the end of the year as teachers isn't you know how much felt safety we've had in our room that what we're measured against is the numbers on the paper. So Obviously, we're not judging any teacher for this. But what would you say to this particular idea that students shouldn't be in the room because they disrupting the learning for others?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, first of all, I'm gonna say again completely understand. I have totally been there when I was working in the mainstream sector, you know, when you've got those one or two young people and they're disrupting everything. But it's again, it's about looking about the why for ourselves as well. Why do we think or feel that way? Well, it's often because actually, we may feel de-skilled. I have felt de-skilled when I first started teaching for many years and I was in certain situations where actually a particular behavior was presented within the classroom and I, everything I was Throwing at it, all these strategies etc. Didn't seem to be working. So it made me feel de-skilled.

Speaker 2:

So, of course, you know, of course, my thinking or I may say, well, maybe they need to be somewhere else. Then you know that's, that's very, very understandable. So we can often feel de-skilled, not know what to do, or feel like we do know what to do, but what we're doing isn't working. There's so many reasons for this, this way of thinking. However, what I do say is that what I think is so important is that if we don't, while these young people are young, if we're not supporting them and they go elsewhere, then what, like? If they then say, well, we can't support them either. And then we go, then what? And then we have to, you know, think about the fact that these are the young people who then go into society, and so on and so forth, and it all backs up. You know, it all has an impact on us collectively in some way, shape or form. So, whilst I completely understand that thinking, I think that because of my Experiences as well, and obviously what I do now, because I know and this is a really bold statement, I'm going to say it because I feel so confident in regards to what works for young people and Because I have such a high success rate and again, I've been really bold here because I've got the statistics, but also the experience in terms of young people with Various needs right across an entire spectrum, and I've seen the results. That's why I'm so confident in what I'm saying, but it's also why I say no blame, no shame.

Speaker 2:

Totally understand that you feel that way because it's not an overnight thing, and one of the things I was slightly concerned about when doing the documentaries is I didn't want it to look like everything happened really quickly. You know, I was in those schools filming for around just under an academic year. So it took a while and even now. You know I'm not in the schools anymore, but they're still continuing with the work One one. I'm not present there because it's ongoing. So you know we do have to be realistic, but in also it is doable. It really really, really is.

Speaker 2:

I cannot stress this enough when you, when we really understand the wise, we can perceive the behaviors of communication and then we can begin to meet those needs. It happens over time, but for some young people, I think this is important as well. My mum used to be a foster care and we used to see this a lot for some young people. You can give them all of the, the resources and everything they need emotionally and practically, and we just have to remember it's always going in for them. I use a flower analogy. Often, like some, like we're watering the soil and sometimes we may not see whilst they're in our class, for example, that year. Let's just say we may not see that flower bloom that year, but we, we, we mustn't forget that it's going into the soil, something's happening beneath the soil, and we may see it the next year or the following year, and so on and so forth. Nothing is ever wasted in that sense.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for addressing that and I say it all the time. You don't see it happening at the moment, but it is working. I think that we want things to Be immediate. I've gone in that class. I've tried to do x, y and z, the students still telling me to f off and walking out. What do I? You know they're not coming on board with what I want to do. They're still ripping up their page.

Speaker 1:

I had a student that I worked with. It took him two whole years because I work at a school for social, emotional, mental health needs, very complex needs for Teenage, teenage boy, like all boys. It took him two years to come into an English lesson and sit down and pick up a pen and put pen to paper. The prior to that he was picking up chairs, throwing them across the room, walking in saying f you, I hate you, your lessons are Crap, all the rest of it. And then he'd leg it again and it took so bloody long because what I represented for him was English, was, you know, abject failure. That's what I've represented to him and I've represented every single teacher Who'd made him feel that way, every subject that made it so. I was all of those things to this young boy, this young boy.

Speaker 1:

It takes a long, friggin time and we only get a year. Luckily I got more time with these students, but it takes a very long time and we often forget that when we're facing it. And it's all about the neuroplasticity, isn't it? Like every single point of connection is forming these new little, you know, like tentacles, up to little tentacles. And I talk about it as like a side road, like you're not going down the highway, because the highway is the way that you've got all of these challenges you've always had. You're kind of creating a little diversion down the side road and that takes a long time.

Speaker 2:

I think this is so crucial, what you're saying, because I think some people listening may be thinking but I'm in the mainstream and I don't have two years in that way, to work with a child in that way, if they're throwing chairs and it's dangerous. So I think I just want to say two quick important points. I think the first one I want to say is that there are some young people who do need a period of time within pupil federal unit, social emotional mental health provision or, depending on their needs, you know, they may need to be educated elsewhere. I mean, I was head of a pupil federal unit and social emotional mental health provision and those young people needed that provision. So I just want to say that, because there are those young people who need that, when you know we're not saying that there aren't. But what I also want to say is that with the example you gave, which was just a brilliant example there would have been, because I think for some people as well, I think what can happen is the thought of, oh my gosh, a couple of years where a child is throwing things around, whatever, like how are we supposed to manage that? Or what about all of the other kids, like you were saying earlier, and I think what's important is that we've got to look within that period of time for the incremental progress.

Speaker 2:

So I always talk about if we're at a starting point and we've got an ideal of where we want to be. It's not going to be a big leap. There's lots and lots and lots of little steps in between and we must celebrate and acknowledge those steps. So it could be if you've got a young person who's constantly walking out of which is quite common for the boys and English lessons walking out through example, and they're constantly walking out, and then we're putting our safety net in place and we're doing all of these things, etc. And then what happens over time is that they stop walking out of that lesson but they're still disruptive within the classroom.

Speaker 2:

That's progress, yes, and it can be like a bit like what, but actually the fact that they're no longer leaving the room, that's progress and we've got to acknowledge that. And we might still be like, oh my gosh, they're causing havoc in the room. Is it so stressful? That's fine, we can do all of that, no problem. They're there for a reason, absolutely. But we've got to acknowledge those increments of progress. And then the next thing may be they stop being disruptive within the lesson and they're sat at their desk, but they're doing not one bit of work, that's another bit of progress, and then so on and so forth, and then it's so easy to miss these things when we're so overwhelmed and stressed and all of the rest of it which, before we end this, I'll talk a bit about that, if that's OK with you, about what we can do, because it's all good and well as talking about this, but if you're feeling overwhelmed, then you're feeling overwhelmed. So I just wanted to make those couple of points quickly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely. Well, go on then. Talk about it now.

Speaker 2:

Let's do it. So I mentioned earlier that behaviour support is a mindset first and not a list of strategies. So we can sit here and people can be listening and saying, yeah, this makes total sense what Marine Clare is talking about, but when I walk into the classroom, this is how I feel and I just can't put it into place. So what's important when I talk about change perception in order to change our perception or our beliefs or our mindsets, or look at the wise, we cannot be what I call emotionally full. If we're emotionally full to the brim, we are going to feel overwhelmed and anxious and stressed and fed up. And I use a glass analogy in my training in my book. And if say, for example, we're 90% emotionally full from stress, tiredness, we've got lives outside of work, et cetera, and then we come into the classroom, we've only got 10% capacity to think, reason, react and respond. When that young person who we know has got ADHD and we know it's not personal and we know we're supposed to put our safety net in and bloody, bloody, bloody, we've only got 10% capacity to think, reason, react and respond. So when something happens, we've only got that to respond with and so we respond in certain ways that leave us feeling even more burnout, et cetera. So we've got to reduce the fullness. So if we can reduce the fullness, say for example, not all way to zeroes, that's not realistic, life happens but if we can reduce that fullness, let's just say to 60%. Now we've got 40% capacity to think, reason, react and respond. And the way we can do this all scientifically based and just can do it really, really basically here is just by thinking about what is emotionally containing for us and implementing that on a daily basis. So, for example, it might be going for a walk, talking to a friend, reading five minutes in the morning, having a coffee or a cup of tea by yourself, whatever it is and I hear lots of people when I first talk about this I just don't have the time. And I always say the same way you have the time to brush your teeth for X amount of minutes in the morning. You can create a few extra minutes for something for yourself and then eventually, because you'll see how it works and what it does to the brain, et cetera, you will want to increase that and you will find a way and you will start to see. Let's just say, your own containment is a coffee in the morning by yourself with no one else around, and that's your emotional containment that creates this space, if you like, in your brain and it helps to kind of lower your emotional fullness. If, for example, one day you don't do that, you will feel the difference when you go in and you face that you can feel the difference when you don't do your containment.

Speaker 2:

It sounds really simple, but it's so impactful and it's often the one thing that people go oh yeah, that makes sense, but then they forget to do it or they start to do it and then it drops off. It's usually the one thing that goes first. And then we find ourselves battling when we're so emotionally full to try and put everything in place but that your self-containment has got to come first. Then, when you're feeling less emotionally full, you can perceive things differently, you can begin to remember things differently and then you can begin to support differently. I honestly I cannot stress this enough you come first. I can't stress this enough. I really can't.

Speaker 1:

I love that idea of that containment. I always talk about regulation, how crucial it is for us to be regulated as teachers. But I've never kind of communicated in that way before. I'm always like because what works for me is at the start of a lesson, taking a deep breath and telling myself, whatever happens, I can really control what I can control. I can still now every single lesson because I know it's always going to be challenging. I know that I'm going to come across things that might be triggering for me, especially now as a mum.

Speaker 1:

I feel like I've got such a little of that that I really feel the impact of it. And hearing you talk, I'm like no wonder I'm finding it harder to regulate at school. No wonder I'm really really having to consciously. I didn't have to consciously do it as much before I had Ava, but now I've really got to consciously bring myself down, regulate the start of a lesson. And it makes sense because I'm not having that time. A shower is my time now. But I always say to everybody just take that deep breath and tell yourself you know a mentor or whatever it might be, but it just makes total sense for people just to choose something that works for them.

Speaker 2:

Honestly, I cannot stress this enough and just to kind of relate. You gave an example of your daughter because sometimes it can be so easy to listen, but I really want people to also understand that we've been there or we are there. So you know, my mum's got dementia. She's not living with us anymore, but last year we had to move her into a home because it was so hard to manage. But for five years she lived with us and honestly, I was literally not sleeping, working full time, raising our two children, doing all of these things and then having to come home and then walk into the house with my mum who's got dementia and with all these different behaviors and things that come with it. And it's a degenerative, obviously, disease so it gets worse.

Speaker 2:

And so the reason I'm sharing this is because I employ the. Everything I talk about I do for myself. I never just talk about things I haven't done it or I don't do it Like. This is literally my way of life. The women people are like how did you do that and film a BBC documentary and do your consultancy work and write a book? I say self containment is my best example and I'm not kidding you, that is how I did it, I'm not kidding, and it wasn't easy all the time, but I absolutely felt it if I didn't do it. So now it's just become a way of life, like I do myself containment every single day, and that's why people often say to me like how? How are you kind of quite buoyant most of the time? I say I'm not happy all the time. But I have integrated this into my way of life and it's literally changed my entire life, not just working life, everything, personal life, everything.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for sharing that and it is so important for everybody to know that we are there and not just going into classrooms. As someone that has all these skills and it's easy and you know we're breezing through it We've got crap going on in our own lives as well and it is friggin hard. And it's so funny that all those things like you've got so many things going on, and I was exactly the same back at work, full time as a senior leader, having to, like, go into my own classes, manage everybody else's, finish the book, come home, no sleep with Ava I was getting rolling sickness because of nursery. And it makes sense now that you say it. I'm like, how was I doing that?

Speaker 1:

And it's because every single morning, without fail, I'm like I know that if I get through this night I've got a hot coffee waiting for me. Like it does sound so silly. And when I went into work, I'm like I'm going to have an almond croissant, like I'm going to sit here for five minutes and I'm going to eat that. I'm not going to talk to anybody. It's how you cope, it's how you get through, it's how you manage. But we can't do anything with our young people without feeling like we're able to do that and then regulated to do that and have the capacity to do it because they take. It takes a lot of us.

Speaker 2:

It does yeah 100%, really does.

Speaker 2:

The final thing I just want to say, really just to summarize everything, if you like is that and I know said this already, but I cannot stress this enough Like I think that we've got to really think about how we perceive things, because when we perceive things in particular ways, we put unnecessary pressure on ourselves. So if, for example, we have a perception that for me as a good teacher or as a good mum, it means that the children in my care are well behaved most of the time, for example let's just use that as a kind of blank example If we have that perception, we are setting ourselves up for failure. We're going to feel like we're inadequate or things aren't working, whereas if we can change our thinking, our perception, which is the first step in behaviour support and begins to think, I need to. I understand how these young people's brains work. Their brains are still developing up until the age of 25. If they do have additional needs, or even if they don't, if they're just really young, for example, we understand that. You know, when my young child has a meltdown, that is part of them learning about the boundaries or or whatever that may be. If they don't share yet, that's because for them and their young brains. Their brains are developed to be to think outside of themselves yet and if we can start thinking about that in that way, it changes everything. We no longer think, oh my gosh, my child's not sharing, they're going to be selfish. We're now like, oh yeah, okay, that's just part of child development and it doesn't make it easier when they have a meltdown or when you have an older child.

Speaker 2:

If you're a teacher who's you know who's displaying a particular behaviour in the classroom, it just takes a little bit of pressure off the shoulders when you're able to perceive and say this is to be expected, and now I know, you know through whether it's training, reading books or doing training or whatever. Now I have more information on what to do to support these young people. I know that if I continue to do this, something's always happening beneath the soil, like the flower analogy from earlier. So it always happening beneath the soil and it is. It will significantly reduce the risk of these behaviours we're occurring in the same way over time. Again, it just helps us to feel a little bit better overall.

Speaker 2:

But we've got to. I just feel so strongly about the fact that we've got to change our perception from trying to aim for this kind of perfection, whether it's as a parent or a school staff member or anyone else. We've got to change that perception, because we're just constantly going to be disappointed and constantly chasing or listening to someone else or trying a new strategy, and actually it's not necessary. In that sense there is. There is a base, so I talk about it in one way, you'll talk about it in a different way, but we're talking about the same thing.

Speaker 2:

So find maybe a couple of people who inspire you, who you like to listen to or whatever, and really go over their books. Or if you've got something to watch or a course or whatever, and start to really learn about it in that way. Don't overwhelm yourself. And learn about it in that way and then begin to apply it until it becomes part of your everyday life.

Speaker 2:

Otherwise, you're constantly looking for this miracle cure for these young people that doesn't exist and you spend, you can expect, you can spend years doing that and you feel totally burnt out at the end. So that's just what I want to kind of say. The last thing I want to say really, because you know that's how I've come to this point today in terms of my thinking, not just workwise but personally, but also it's just helped me get such a good work-life balance to the point where I can boldly, honestly and confidently say I love my job, even all the hard parts about it. I absolutely love it. But I can also confidently say and I also know what works for these young people. But it's taken a while to get there.

Speaker 1:

No, I love that so much and one of the big pushbacks I get because we're both working with, kind of like a brain-based, restorative, trauma-informed approach whatever you want to call it, it's the same thing we talk about in different ways. When we work in this way, the pushback you get sometimes is well, it doesn't work. Like, students, they need to know, they need to learn the lesson, they need to, whatever. What I always say is well, what's the alternative? You know, like, what do you want to get out of this? And that's not going to get what you want.

Speaker 1:

Like, the alternative to having a restorative discussion is what? The alternative to building a relationship is what? Not building a relationship? Like I think, the second. We start to realise that the alternative to a restorative approach is something that is just not going to work, the more on board everybody's going to be with it, because we want sustainable change for these young people and this is the way that you need to get it Like. This is the way that we do get that. So I would just appreciate your work so much because it's not just advocating for students and young people, for what they need to be able to thrive and learn and all the rest of it, but it's also advocating for all of the teachers, which is so crucial because that is who's doing the job and you know, blamed, not shame, is something that I'm going to be constantly quoting you on in future, because it really does have to underpin everything that we do.

Speaker 2:

I think it's so important that we didn't really kind of touch on but not fully when you, when you talked about you know, that kind of trauma approach and all the rest of it. I think it's so important to say that everything in life is balanced. So the way I now describe it, to try and hopefully bring together parts of mind coming from all these different perspectives and walks of life, is that the. So I've created something which I call the containment puzzle, and the word containment is about emotional safety and security and within that that puzzle, there's seven elements and so I just made a few of them which I mentioned earlier, but boundaries, language, attachment, routine, expectations, and there's a couple more. So but what I talk about is the fact that to help balance things out, the boundaries, the reason why we have boundaries for young people, so when we're understanding, you know, the behaviors, communication or the recipe doesn't mean we don't have boundaries.

Speaker 2:

We have boundaries so many times and people get confused around it, which is understandable, but it's about the balance of all of these elements. So you should have boundaries because that's your external support and the reason you have the boundaries is because, internally, the boundaries provide emotional safety for the young person. You should have expectations. That's your external support but internally provides emotional safety, security for these young people. So this is how I kind of kind of marks it out to make it a bit clearer.

Speaker 2:

But the boundaries and expectations and the routines etc. They will come alive and work when you have an equal balance, not one more than the other, but when you have an equal balance also of the type of language that you're using with that young person, when you have an equal balance of that connection or attachment that you're forming or actively doing with that young person. If you can balance that out with the boundaries etc, that's when you see things really come alive. It's not about being boundary heavy or or just you know, kind of language heavy in terms of, oh, you know, yes, you understand how behaviors communication is not, it's not one of the other, it's a balance of all of these and that's that's why it's so impactful and so effective, because you're balancing it all out and it's what we all need to be able to survive and live safely and feel safe and contained.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I almost think that, with an approach that we're taking the boundaries, the expectations, the follow through, all of those things have to end, the accountability, it all has to be stronger. And I think it's a stronger approach because you need to be really strategic with how you do that and you have to get the buy in, and when you get the buy in, that's when things start to really happen and the magic happens. So it's definitely not an approach that is lacking in any of that stuff, you know, and I'm preaching to the choir with that one. So, marie, where can people access more of your guidance, your work guidance let's just go a little pun in there your work and support.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. So I have a website which is wwwgentle's guidancecom and that's got all the information on there. So there is access to my digital course that I've just created and that's for individuals, or that's parents, carers or teachers or people in professions or schools or organizations as well, so available to groups. There's also information in there about my how to purchase my book, which is called Gentle Guidance, or play on my surname, marie Gent, and, if you haven't already, you can watch the documentary or documentaries on BBC I Player. And then, of course, you know, follow on Instagram, should you choose to.

Speaker 1:

So all of those things I'm obviously going to pop in the show notes so everyone can find it really really easily. Thank you so much for your time this morning, marie. I know you're a busy woman, you're doing such amazing things and, yeah, I'm just stoked that I got to meet you as well.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. Honestly, it's been an absolute pleasure, thank you.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Claire English

Host