The Unteachables Podcast

#48: Should we be ‘letting things slide’ as teachers? Or should we be holding students accountable for every little challenging behaviour?

• Claire English • Season 4 • Episode 48

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Classroom management is nothing if not confusing. One of the things I have been told along the way is that we need to be picking our battles with behaviour. Another thing I have ALSO been told along the way is that we shouldn't be letting things slide. I have also given both of these pieces of advice at different times in my career. 

So what do we do? Where do I stand?

Well the reality is that it is far more complicated than this. 

Are you surprised?

As I always say, classroom management is incredibly nuanced, and there’s very rarely a black and white answer. However, in today’s episode, I do aim to provide you with a bit of clarity on what it means to balance rapport with addressing challenging behaviours. 

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Claire English:

Classroom management is nothing, if not really confusing, and one of the things that I've been told along the way is that we need to be picking our battles with behavior, with our students. Another thing that I've been told along the way is that we can't let things slide, otherwise behaviors will get on top of us and it'll be chaos. Right, I've also given both of those pieces of advice at different times in my career. So what do we do and where do I stand on it? Well, the reality is far more complicated than this, and I'm not surprised are you surprised? Because I always say classroom management is incredibly nuanced and there's very rarely a black and white answer to this. However, in today's episode, I do aim to provide you with a little bit of clarity on what to do and where I stand and what we should really be thinking when it comes to behaviors and picking our battles and choosing what holds a die on, however you wanna say it. So if you've ever been stumped by the question, should I really be addressing this right now, or should I be picking my battles and just letting this one slide, then this episode is definitely for you. So let's just get started. ["the Unchained Classroom Management"].

Claire English:

Welcome to the Unteachables podcast. I'm Claire English, a passionate secondary teacher and leader, turned teacher, mentor and author, and I'm on a mission to transform classroom management and teacher support in schools. It doesn't feel that long ago that I was completely overwhelmed and out of my depth of behavior, trying to swim rather than sink. It took me spending thousands of hours in the classroom, with all of the inevitable ups and downs, to make me the teacher that I am today Confident, capable and empowered in my ability to teach all students yes, even the ones who are the toughest to reach and now I'm dedicated to supporting teachers like yourself to do the same. I created the Unteachables podcast to give you the simple and actionable classroom management strategies and support that you need to run your room with confidence and calm. So if you're a teacher or one in the making, and you're wanting to feel happy and empowered and actually enjoy being in the classroom, whilst also making a massive impact with every single one of your students, then you're definitely in the right place. Let's get started. Hello, lovely teachers, welcome to another week of the Unteachables podcast.

Claire English:

Today, I'm going to be talking about something that had me stumped for a very long time, and it's kind of striking that balance between needing to address the behaviors that we see in front of us for a variety of reasons I'll talk about throughout this episode, but balancing that with, we also need to foster a rapport with our students, a relationship with our students we need to get by in. So if we're spending the lesson picking up every single little behavior, where's the room for us to develop the relationship and where's the connection, where's the positivity in that? So today I'm going to be talking through kind of the nuances of that, a bit of a. I'm going to be teaching it through a story of one of my ex-students and hopefully by the end of this episode you'll have a little bit more clarity on how to approach these situations, because it is something that is really hard to kind of wrap our heads around, because it's kind of like two conflicting things that we're having to do at the same time, which is, hold students accountable for their behavior while still maintain especially the students who are the hardest to reach and the hardest to teach. It is so hard to balance these two things. So I think it's probably best for me to talk through this in relation to a student that I've taught, give you an idea of how I handle these things and this student. Although every student is unique, if I'm talking about this student and the challenges that I had with him, I could also talk about 200 other students that I've had the same kind of struggles with that I would approach in a similar way. I don't want to say anything definable about this student, but let's just say his name's James and I taught him at some point in the last 12 years.

Claire English:

I was new to the school. At the time I'd never met this young person. He was the kind of kid that you'd look at and like you'd look at all of his past reports, you'd look at all of the things that his past teachers have said and they'd say something like you know I can't tell you what he's like at English because he hasn't done any work for the whole year. His books would be empty, there'd be zero work being produced, he wouldn't be at school or he wouldn't be in class if you're off somewhere else. So there'd be a total lack of engagement in the learning and I think for his past teachers there was a lot of resistance, there was a lot of pushback, a lot of defiance. So that's the kind of student that I walked into.

Claire English:

But I know this young person. I walked into this class for the first time. This young person didn't know who I was and I tried to engage him in whatever we were doing. Before he even let me open my mouth, he tells me to f off. He goes to a table a random table and he puts his head down. Now, he doesn't know me, I don't know him, but what he does know about me is that I'm an English teacher. That's all he knows about me.

Claire English:

I am his English teacher and as his English teacher, I know that I represent every single rapport comment that was bad, every single piece of work that felt too hard, every single lesson he felt like a failure in, and every time he looked at something, maybe, and felt like a failure, that he wasn't smart or worthy. That is me in front of him. I am the person that represents that for him and of course, we can unpack that so much more. But in terms of who I am as a person, that doesn't matter is what I represented for him in that moment when he came into that lesson and what the lesson represents. And what did I know about him as a student? Nothing. All I knew was from what I'd read or what I'd asked people about, which I know as an experienced teacher.

Claire English:

Now, that's not necessarily a reflection on what this young person is like as a human being. All I do know is that no student walks into my lesson for the first time and meets me for the first time and tells me to F off and actually means for me to F off as a human being, as a person, as an individual. I know that that F off is a shield. I know it's masking whatever really complex feelings he's having at the time. I know that it's protecting him from whatever he feels he needs to be protected from, whether it's the fact that he feels like a failure, whether it feels he feels like he can't connect on any level with me. He's just protecting himself.

Claire English:

Now let me tell you what he was like by the end of the first half term, so just six weeks. Almost every single lesson, he said to me I've never written this much in English. He also said every single lesson You're so annoying. And upon entering every single lesson, he also said what SHIT work are we doing today? So this was a really complex young man. But every single lesson, he said to me I have never written this much before in my life. I have never done this much work in English.

Claire English:

What I want to preface this with, by the way, every single student is going to be different. As I said before, nothing is going to be black and white, but the principles that I'm going to be talking about in this episode will remain the same across all of the students that you do teach. I said before as well that this young person could have been a lot of young people that I did teach. I have come across students like this so many times in my career. This is the nature of the kind of work that I do and the environments that I have worked in over my career, but, of course, every single child is unique, so we kind of apply things across the board. So if you try saying the same things that I say in this episode to a student and it doesn't get anywhere, it's because we need to adapt to the situation, obviously. So let me just say that before we move on, I wanted to start first, though, by talking about what I didn't do to get to this point.

Claire English:

Remember every single lesson. He'd come in and he'd incrementally get better at his writing. He would be saying to me he'd be putting his confidence. He would be saying this is the most work I've ever done. This is the most writing I have ever done. He would say you're so annoying because you've gotten me writing, because you're getting me to do something. Obviously he was joking, but he kept getting more and more confident. He kept becoming more and more engaged. I got more and more bind from him. But what I didn't do was let the things slide that weren't impacting upon him and the the lesson positively, the other students positively.

Claire English:

So every single lesson I still needed to address things like him coming in and putting his legs up on the table, him getting his phone out and not listening, his head down the desk, just completely disengaging from the lesson. Him leaving the room to smoke, him coming in late and swearing and getting the rest of the class off track All of that common stuff that you see from more high-end needs of students when they do display really challenging behaviors. So how can we still address all of these things All in the first weeks of knowing a young person, all while still trying to establish a rapport and trust and trying to break that chronic cycle of disengagement and lack of confidence? There's so many complex things going on all at once, how do we do all of that and build the trust and get by in, while still maintaining our expectations and addressing all of those things we need to address and not letting those things slide necessarily? It's because every single time I needed to address behaviors with him, I saw that as an opportunity for connection, because what I needed him to know was holding him accountable, held him to a higher standard that I knew he was capable of. And every single time I addressed him, I made sure he knew this, I made sure he knew I believed in him. I knew that he could do better, that I couldn't, I couldn't possibly accept him sitting there and disengaging in the learning, because he deserved better for himself.

Claire English:

And there is an upcoming episode, by the way, with Bobby from Liberation Lab, and he says something in that that is so transformative and it was just something that clicked for me so much. It was such a beautiful way to put it. He said I hold students accountable for the greatness that is within them. So when we're thinking about holding students accountable for their behavior, we need to think about it in a way of, of course, we need to hold them accountable for their behavior. But that's because they can do so much better. And if we want them to do better, we need to expect better, and that comes through the work that we do with them, through the discussions that we have with them, through the expectations that we hold for them. Doing this requires a hell of a lot of balance, but it's also just in the delivery and in how we view them and their behaviors.

Claire English:

It took some inner work, and it always takes inner work to work with students who display these challenging behaviors. I asked myself every single lesson like I do with all of my students who could be labeled as unteachable and unreachable what can I do to get by in with them? What can I do to make you feel safe? What can I do to make you believe in yourself? Because very often they don't, and they've had experience in education most of the time where they can't believe in themselves because they're constantly feeling incredible feelings of failure. And then, if I'm facing a challenging behavior and I really want to respond, before responding I just kind of put it through a filter in my brain and say to myself is what I'm going to do right now to respond, going to gain buy-in for them to actually do better. Will it make them believe in themselves more, will it make them feel safe, while still holding them accountable?

Claire English:

Because if there's no buy-in with the young people that we're teaching, there's nothing. If we don't have buy-in, they're not going to listen to us, they're not going to want to be held accountable for things from us, they're not going to want to do the work. We need to get their buy-in and we do that through the connections that we have with them. It's a really simple one to remember. Just, is this going to get me buy-in with this student? And if it's not going to get me buy-in, then let me put that to the side and think about something like how can I approach this behavior in a way that will get me buy-in? How can I connect with them rather than disconnect with them? Because that's going to allow you to have much more success with whatever behavior is in front of you, whatever student it is, it's always going to give you far more success than the opposite of that.

Claire English:

So after that first lesson, I knew that James would be a student that I really needed to get buy-in from, and that would take rapport building. That would take a lot of me believing in him. So that first lesson he walks in, tells me to f off, disengaged. So what do I do in that moment? Well, honestly, I f'd off, but before I did like I just left him alone. But I also crouched down next to him before I did that and said very quietly hi, james, I will leave you be, but I just hope you're okay, I'm going to catch you after this because I really want to get to know you a little bit.

Claire English:

The class then saw me addressing up with him and not letting it slide. He knew I was addressing it, which is really important, and after the lesson I was able to have a discussion with him and be really open and transparent with him. Like, I just want to get to know you, james, and see if you're okay, because I've been teaching for long enough to know that when you walk in and tell me to f off before you've even gotten to know me, before we've gotten to know each other, you must not like English or something else must be going on. Either way, I'm here, we were working together from now on and I think it's really important that we do get to know each other. And he didn't say a lot. He did listen as I explained to I was I miss English, and I didn't expect you to believe me right away, but by the end of this term, I really know that you're going to be smashing your work. I could have addressed in the moment by saying how dare you tell me to f off? Get started on your work, really push the point.

Claire English:

A lot of that is really hard for us to do as well, remember, because we're human beings, and when we're faced with a young person coming into a class and being that rude to us, being that reactive, it's really hard for us not to do that back, obviously not saying to f off to them, but not to respond in a way that matches that energy. It's so important not to, though, and it was easy of me not to, because I was able to take a step back and really tell myself the fact that he doesn't know me. So of course, it's not about me, it's about something else. And back to that question would that have gotten me buy in? The answer is no, of course. It wouldn't have gotten me buy in. It would not have made him trust me, it would not have made him feel safe, and if I did do that, instead of saying, you know, like, let's have a chat, he would have walked out, he would have told me to f off the next lesson. The cycle would have continued and it would have become much harder for me as a teacher. If I didn't approach in that way in the moment, it would have been a totally different outcome.

Claire English:

It's so crucial for us to be able to hold the boundaries for our young people and still hold those expectations in a way that is kind and compassionate. And guess what? The next lesson, he didn't walk in and tell me to f off. It wasn't perfect by any means and it took a long time for us to get to a place where he was productively working. He was really distracting to those around him and he didn't complete a lot of work. And did I address those things with him? Yes, of course I did.

Claire English:

If I let that slide, what was I communicating to him? When we let things slide like disengagement, lack of work, completion without, obviously, we need to get to the root cause of it. When we let these things slide, what we're actually saying to the young person is you can't do it anyway. I don't really care if you complete the work or not, and I'm not saying that's what we're thinking in our brains really consciously. Those are the messages that our young people are getting without even them realizing it consciously.

Claire English:

So I started the conversation with him. It's so nice to see you today. What a different entrance. Come on, give me a fist bump, because that second lesson guess what he did. Come in, he did sit down, he didn't tell me to f off, and that is progress for some young people. And to meet young people where they're at is to acknowledge the progress, not the expectation of what the final result should be. So I did obviously address the things with him in every single lesson that weren't going right, but I made sure I really amped up the things that were.

Claire English:

And that second lesson after he'd come back, after our discussion, the first lesson, I said to him what do you think we're going to ask you to do today? So I'm reinforcing what we discussed the previous lesson. I said is there anything with the work that you're going to struggle with today? Like, have a look at it, that's fine. If there is anything, then I'm right there. When you need help, just pop your hand up and I'll come over. Really quietly he wrote two sentences in an hour. When I asked him how he think he went, he said that's the most writing I have done in English ever and he had such a proud look on his face. It was two sentences. So when we're thinking about appropriate expectations, meeting the young person where they're at is so important and making sure that it's just appropriate to their level. So two sentences for another student would be lowering the bar and would be really damaging for this young person in that moment. That was really where they should be. That's their bar, because it's about building their confidence. And then the next lesson, the lesson after that lesson. After that, I'm going to be upping it for him. I'm going to be upping the game. I'm going to be making sure he knows that he can do more and more and more.

Claire English:

So for James, as we went through the term, he still needed constant support with his behavior. He walked into the lesson once. Happy F and Friday, everybody. What would have disconnected with him would be me saying right, james, get it back outside and try that again. What would connect with him would be happy Friday, james. I'm so glad you're enthusiastic, but how about we say happy freaking Friday, please? So just those little tweaks in the way that I was asking the language to shift for him and if there were days he came in and said don't eff, and talk to me. I'd say I hope you're okay. And then, once we've worked through whatever's happened, he would just offer up an apology for swearing. And sometimes I would need to say, do you remember what you said before you came into the classroom? Say, like, as you were coming into the classroom, do you remember what you said? How is that not appropriate? What can we do next time? So that constant dialogue with him about the expectations that I have of him and making sure that that's balanced with all of the support that he needs, because when it comes to behavior, we shouldn't let things slide for the sake of the relationship or for the sake of a calm lesson, because we need to remember that us holding our students accountable in ways that is compassionate and kind and appropriate is also developing the relationship. It tells them that we care. It sends messages of care because we care enough about them to hold them to a higher standard. And remember that beautiful quote from Bobby it is, you know, holding them accountable for the greatness that is within them what I want to be very careful of here, though, is people misunderstanding what I mean.

Claire English:

I don't verbally address all behaviors in the classroom. I think I said this earlier in the podcast. If there are low level behaviors happening in the class, I'll just use all of my nonverbals to get the class's attention and quiet the room. That is also still maintaining expectation. That is still not letting things slide. If I'm still addressing the class in a way that's nonverbal and not explicit to the student, that is causing the disruption. So I just wanted to make that one clear. If a student's calling out, I'm not necessarily going to be talking to him every single lesson, because that's unsustainable for teachers. It's not possible to be, and not nor should we do that, because that would damage the relationship because it'd be being petty.

Claire English:

Let me have a five minute discussion with you about the fact that you chucked a pen instead of just placing it. Maybe appropriate in some situations, not always. Also, one thing that I have to add is that some teachers still believe that things like not sitting quietly and still for an entire lesson or not giving eye contact are things that are challenging behaviors that we need to address. These are not things that we need to let slide because they're just developmentally appropriate. It is ableist for us to expect all students to be able to give us eye contact and maintain eye contact, because we know that that's really uncomfortable and sitting still really uncomfortable for students who are neurodivergent. We have to be really careful about things that we and see things through a different lens. What is challenging behavior? What is behavior that I actually need to be working through with the young people? What is problematic? What is stopping them from doing their learning? So all of that to say really simply it's not about us letting things slide, it is about how we address things. That matters the most.

Claire English:

At the end of the term, when James stayed back and said I haven't done this much work ever. Look at my book, and he was flipping through it. I just said to him you should be so proud of yourself. And then he said it was because I was his favorite teacher and every other English teacher he had. He wanted to just throw his book in their face again. I wasn't letting that slide because I shut that comment down and made sure he knew that wasn't appropriate. But then I asked him what made that term different and he said that for the moment that I spoke to him on that first lesson. He thought that I was kind, and those were his exact words you seemed kind, I thought you were kind, and that just sums everything up.

Claire English:

My expectations of him were high. He told me that previous teachers would let him sit in the corner and do no work, and that just shows that it's not about letting things slide, as about how we address the things that matters so much. My expectations of him were high, but I was always communicated with kindness and compassion. It was always framed in a way that was about bringing the best out in him, and that's not to say that his previous teachers weren't kind.

Claire English:

By the way, I have nothing but compassion for teachers who really struggle with this, and that's why I did this podcast episode, because being able to hold these two things simultaneously is so tough being able to hold the boundaries, hold those expectations, really address behaviors in a way with, especially, the students who are the toughest to reach and teach whilst maintaining that relationship and getting that buy-in.

Claire English:

It's a really hard thing to do. It's very, very complex. We just need to place connection at the heart of it, no matter how we can gain buy-in, because without buy-in we have nothing and we'll get nothing back from them. And how can we make them feel safe enough and confident enough to pick up that pen, just like James did? Okay, that is all for this week. I hope you got a trust that you did get something out of this episode, even if it's a little bit of validation for the work that you're doing, because it is such a hard job, and I have got nothing but boundless time, patience and compassion for every single person in this profession, and I know you're doing the best that you can. Have a wonderful week, lovely teacher, and I will see you next week at the same time.

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