The Unteachables Podcast

#61. “Make me a sandwich”. How we can address the alarming misogyny present in our classrooms.

• Claire English • Season 4 • Episode 61

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Download the guide: Addressing misogyny in the classroom

In the wake of recent events sparking renewed conversations about gender-based violence, the imperative for educators to address misogyny in the classroom has never been more pressing. Samantha Schulz's article, "Make me a sandwich," sheds light on a disturbing reality: the behaviors and language male students exhibit that perpetuate sexist and abusive attitudes towards their female teachers.

In planning for this podcast and the guide that you can access above, I reached out to educators (from Australia) and what they shared about their own experiences reinforced the concerns in Schultz’s research. From dismissive attitudes towards female teachers to alarming comments about gender roles and sexuality, the spectrum of issues, ranging from subtle yet insidious remarks to overtly misogynistic comments, demands our attention and action.

Yet, our response must be as nuanced as the issue at hand itself. We cannot resort to shaming or isolating our students; instead, we must seize each interaction as an opportunity for buy-in and education. This episode, and the attached guide, aims to equip teachers with strategies to do just that; to address misogyny effectively and strategically. 

By taking these steps, we not only create safer spaces for our students but also do our part to contribute to a broader cultural shift. None of us can do this alone, and we can all play a small part.

In this episode I provide you with a 4 step roadmap to feeling more confident and empowered addressing misogynistic and other problematic comments in the classroom.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Unteachables podcast. I'm Claire English, a passionate secondary teacher and leader, turned teacher, mentor and author, and I'm on a mission to transform classroom management and teacher support in schools. It doesn't feel that long ago that I was completely overwhelmed and out of my depth with behavior, trying to swim rather than sink. It took me spending thousands of hours in the classroom, with all of the inevitable ups and downs, to make me the teacher that I am today Confident, capable and empowered in my ability to teach all students yes, even the ones who are the toughest to reach and now I'm dedicated to supporting teachers like yourself to do the same. I created the Unteachables podcast to give you the simple and actionable classroom management strategies and support that you need to run your room with confidence and calm. So if you're a teacher or one in the making, and you're wanting to feel happy and empowered and actually enjoy being in the classroom, whilst also making a massive impact with every single one of your students, then you're definitely in the right place. Let's get started. Hello wonderful teachers, welcome back to another episode of the Unteachables podcast. It is so wonderful to have you join me here. Thank you so much for just choosing to press play on this podcast episode, especially today's podcast episode, because it's something that is very close to my heart and I because it's something that is very close to my heart and I know it's something that is very close to a lot of teachers' hearts, and it's also something that is a very huge issue, a huge challenge, something that we need to be addressing in every way we possibly can. Now, before I get started, I just want to say that there are going to be some things in this episode that are very sensitive. They're going to be things that are potentially triggering. So I just wanted to get that sorted from the outset and say that Please go into it knowing that. I know that from the episode's title, you probably have a bit of an understanding around what I'm going to be talking about, but I'm going to be talking about addressing misogyny, misogynistic comments, gender-based violence in the classroom. So go into this knowing that's what I'm going to be talking about, and I might be using some examples that are particularly challenging to hear Before I get started as well, I want you to know right from the outset that I've created a guide around addressing misogyny in the classroom, and you can get a copy of that by going to the episode description and clicking the link.

Speaker 1:

I want this to be shared far and wide. I want educators to be empowered with the confidence and knowledge to address these problematic comments when they arise, and that comes with the knowledge on how to do that and the skills and the support to be able to do that. So I created this guide on the back of I did it very quickly and I created it on the back of all of the renewed discussion around gender-based violence. So, on the back of that, I wanted to make sure that I was doing my part in this education space to be able to support teachers through these really challenging things, and to be able to support teachers through these really challenging things and to be able to support all of our students. So, on the back of that as well, there was a recent article titled Make Me a Sandwich.

Speaker 1:

So it's about a survey's disturbing picture of how some boys treat their teachers, by Samantha Schultz, a senior lecturer at University of Adelaide. A quote from this survey reads we need to look at the whole of society when we consider how to make it safer for women. One huge part of our society is schools, where Australians spend about 13 years of their lives. Colleagues and I are surveying South Australian teachers about sexist and other antisocial views among their students. She said the survey is ongoing, but our results so far paint a disturbing picture where female teachers are subjected to sexist and abusive language and behavior by male students. Let me just say as well, this is not just about female teachers being subjected to these comments. Female students are as well subjected to these comments. Like you know, female students are as well. It is something that is deeply embedded into our schools and teachers.

Speaker 1:

I often ask what you're struggling with, so I do know that there are a lot of you out there that have. By the way, this is not just Australia. I have worked in the UK. This is definitely not just an Australian issue. So, in preparation for this podcast, I asked how you have experienced this within your own classrooms, just kind of as my own survey. I mean, I have 170,000 of you from all parts of the world on my Instagram and these were the kinds of things that you have heard and experienced and had shared with me through that survey, and I want to also say that this is probably about 3% of the responses that I got. I got hundreds and hundreds of responses, really explicit detail around what you had experienced in the classroom. So things like oh, sir, you tell her. Um, oh, it's that woman relief teacher, we don't need to do anything this lesson.

Speaker 1:

Lots about students referencing Andrew Tate frequently and arguing why they don't ever want to touch a girl who has had sex before. So many people saying male students had expressed things like I don't want to be taught by females or you know, speaking in a really derogatory way about being taught by a female teacher. Things like you're pregnant and hormonal or you're on your periods. There was a fourth grade student saying I want to ride you like a bicycle. Students saying there are more men at university because women are in the kitchen, where they belong. Lots of comments around women being in the kitchen and women being at home and women being the ones that have to have the babies and stay at home. Lots of comments around women's intelligence. One said that a student has said to them Miss, can I buy you a drink so I can see how you swallow? Comments around girls bringing assault on themselves. And I have had heaps and heaps of experience around male students saying this to me and to other students. Male colleagues, there's a lot around the way that male colleagues conduct themselves within the workspace around their female colleagues. So male colleagues calling me a good girl, lots of male colleagues saying can I get a boy to help me with these chairs? So kind of the more nuanced, subtle ways that we are reinforcing these views amongst our students.

Speaker 1:

There is also another article that came out this week. Four school boys were suspended after ranking female classmates as unrapeable. So the ranking, the ranking was wifeys, cuties, mids, like there's midline objects. There was actually a um, a criteria, just as object. The one up from that get out and then on the higher end of the scale is unrapeable, which is I'll link you to the article in the handbook as well that I've created. So it is like unthinkably horrific, these types of comments. But it's not something that's isolated and it's not out of the norm. And I would go as far as to say that in every single school there is something said by students every single day that perpetuates these deep systemic problems around misogyny and gender-based violence. Yet most of the time it is more subtle and nuanced than that. It's happening all the time.

Speaker 1:

So it's so important for us as teachers to be able to address this and why it's important for us as teachers. We're on the front line. We see young males in the social context where they're saying things to each other, to their female peers. We're seeing them interacting. We are hearing them talk about what they're watching, what they're listening to, who they're idolizing people like Andrew Tate. We need to be ear to the ground and hearing these things. It's not our responsibility solely to change these things.

Speaker 1:

Of course, there is a huge, wide issue that's been embedded into the fabric of our society for as long as I've been alive, like at school myself as a young girl. I vividly remember boys lifting up my skirt, grabbing at my private parts, grabbing my boobs. As a woman, I have always been afraid to walk down the street alone. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. But, moving forward, there are still insidious and pressing issues in our school. No, we are not the sole responsibility of these issues. We don't hold one single key. No one does hold one single key. But, as the article said, we all have our part and we all, as teachers, see these students. You know they're in school for 13 years of their life. What that does mean is we hold opportunities, and that's what I want to be talking about in this episode of the podcast. That was like an eight minute introduction, but in this podcast I'm going to be talking about how we can see these really massive challenges as opportunities.

Speaker 1:

Every single time we see something that perpetuates this gender-based violence, this misogyny, we have an opportunity as teachers to connect, to educate, to call it out in a way that will gain buy-in. We see them for so many hours and we do see so many of these comments coming to the forefront and of all of the teachers that commented on my survey saying what they had heard and witnessed, so many of those as well. When I spoke to them in more depth about it, I reached out, I questioned them and I said what did you do in this situation? What did you say? And so many teachers said I don't know. It's awkward and it can be so hard. And it is so hard because when you say something that leads to students fighting back harder, saying it's my opinion, I'm entitled to my opinion. And when we're trying to address something that's incredibly deeply personal and triggering for us as women, we need a clear way to address it, because when you get back from students, I'm entitled to my opinion.

Speaker 1:

It can be so hard not to lock horns with that student and go gung-ho and just you know, we can just continue to lock horns until we're just escalating things beyond what it needs to be and we've lost that opportunity then to educate. So what can we do and what can we say in the heat of the moment? So let's just say that one of those comments that was said by these teachers so let's say girls, bring a salt on themselves. If you hear a male student say that, what can we do? It is so important for every single thing that I'm about to say to take it seriously and not ignore it. So the first thing to do is immediately name the behavior and views for what they are.

Speaker 1:

Don't just say that's an inappropriate thing to say. You say that is a misogynistic comment, that is a sexist comment, that is a violent comment, and this is the same formula for any problematic comment. So that is homophobic, that is transphobic. Whatever the comment is, you need to name it. When you name it, then you can really drive home the point that this is very, very serious and needs to be followed up promptly. So ensure the student then knows you're going to be following up promptly and properly at the first available opportunity. So just say in the middle of the lesson they say this you're not going to have the time to spend 10 minutes talking to that student about why that was problematic to say. You can say to them I need you to know that's very serious and we will be talking about this more after the lesson Something to be mindful of Remember. It may not happen. It did in my context a lot because of the high nature of the students I work with.

Speaker 1:

But a big issue here is that some students will make a thing out of it. If you say, johnny, that was a misogynistic thing to say, I need you to know that wasn't appropriate, it was very serious and we need to be speaking about this more after the lesson. You might get a lot of that's my opinion. I'm not sexist, I'm not misogynistic. Come on everybody. That wasn't sexist, it's just my opinion.

Speaker 1:

So they're getting all of this social feedback, they're getting all of this backup and, my gosh, it can feel disempowering If this happens. If you are getting these comments back and you're feeling incredibly disempowered. It can be very off-putting as well, then, to challenge these things as a teacher because you know you're going to get that from your students. It's like that kind of group mentality. If that happens, try to keep your cool. Don't engage with it. Move on to the next steps very calmly.

Speaker 1:

So if there is anybody around that's listening, like the students, the class, ensure that any person who is a victim of this or a witness of the comments is safe and knows those views are never acceptable. So if this is said in the middle of a lesson in front of 30 students, say something like to the whole class. I need you to all know that I will be taking this very seriously. It is not okay to say things like this. It's never okay to say things like this. If it's appropriate, you can educate on the spot. Use it as an opportunity to educate. It depends on your context. It depends how confident you are in the subject matter. It depends on whether or not you're able to do that in a way that's going to be well received by the students. With buy-in. There's a lot of factors that are involved in that. But if it's appropriate, you can use it as an opportunity to engage with the whole class.

Speaker 1:

If there is one particular student who may be a victim, you can approach them and say Jenny, that's not acceptable. You know, are you okay? Is there something that you need right now? Just know I will be dealing with this seriously. So if something's directed at that student, make sure they know you will be addressing it. Make sure everybody in that space knows that those comments are something that will be addressed seriously. You are making a point of it. You are making sure that you are cutting through that culture in the class and being the leader in that room.

Speaker 1:

The next thing to do is have a discussion with that student, exploring the harm of these views, the harm of that behavior, and educating them around the deeper issues. If you've done my That'll Teach them course or the Masterclass Real Consequences, real Change. This is where you would use your transformative talk roadmaps, but for the purposes of this particular guide, this podcast, say things like do you understand why the things you said are serious? Do you understand why that is never okay to say? Can you explain that to me in your own words? You can say who do you think these comments hurt? Why? How can you make that right? What can you do next? What steps can you take? You can ask them. Can you explain to me what misogyny means? Can you explain to me why this is harmful for women, for girls, for our society? Can I explain that to you if you don't know? So this is the part where you need to be educating the students, talking them through what it is saying. You know you can tell your own story if you want to, but it's really important that in this discussion it is based around education.

Speaker 1:

We cannot be shaming students. The second we shame, we are disconnecting with that student and we are not going to get the buy-in. We need to be able to make the change we need to make. Okay, so you've had that discussion with the student. So you've named the behavior. You've made sure the victims and witnesses know that that's not okay. You're having a discussion with the student, exploring that harm and educating them around the deeper issues in the best way that you can, if it's appropriate.

Speaker 1:

The next thing to do would be to inform your safeguarding or welfare team, if you have one. Every school should have something. I know they're called different things in different places, but make sure you're informing somebody around what has happened. So in the UK, for instance, you might use my concern and you might do like a little entry around the comments being problematic and misogynistic or whatever it might be in my Concern or any other platform you use. The reason why it's important to do this is because it builds a picture of that student and the support that they require. So if you do need other outside agencies to be doing more rigorous work with that student, you've got the there to back that up.

Speaker 1:

So making sure we're really documenting this. It also really helps getting the parents on board. If you get them in for a meeting in three months time and you've got no information on what that student's been saying there's no clear documentation around. That it's going to be much harder to work with that parent and carer in a collaborative way. So make sure you're documenting things in whatever platform it is, even if it's just flagging it, so it's there and it's ready if you need it. Have a collaborative discussion with the parents and carers. So make sure you let the parent or carer know what has happened. Not only is it about collaborating with the parent or carer, but it just reinforces how serious you're taking it to that student. So it becomes something that's not just a funny comment that you're saying to your pals in the classroom. It becomes something that will always be followed up with it will become something that you will need to go through a process around, read it out to the parents.

Speaker 1:

Today your child said that student is X, y, z. So make sure you're saying it to the parent. Don't sugarcoat it, because nothing is going to be benefit like nothing will be benefited from you sugarcoating these types of comments so you can say hi. Mrs Brand, you have time to chat. I'd love to hear your thoughts and just keep you in the loop about something that James has said today. Today James said X. I have followed up in this particular way. We take this seriously because of this. So make sure you're really giving a picture, an accurate picture, of what had happened in the lesson.

Speaker 1:

Say to the parent or carer it would be really wonderful if you could just let James know that I spoke to you today so he knows we are taking it seriously. We care and it's very important that he doesn't think that this is acceptable and goes out into the real world. You know the world I mean not the real world. The real world is school but to go out into the world and become an adult that expresses these really problematic views. We care enough to try to get this sorted before that happens. So we will be keeping an eye out for him. We're going to be keeping an eye out for these kinds of comments in the future and we will be feeding back to you, if we need to, whenever everything comes up. When anything pops up, we will be feeding back to you about that. So just make sure we are really openly and honestly communicating that with the parent or carer and flagging it with safeguarding just getting that village on board, because, as an individual teacher, yes, we can discuss this with the students, but we need to have everybody on board with this. So what can we do longer term? We can have multiple discussions in our lesson, but what can we do longer term to make sure this is something that we're living and breathing in our practice?

Speaker 1:

As I said at the start of the episode, I have a guide for you to download by heading to the show notes. It's just an action plan for responding to these comments, so the steps from today, just with some other prompts to guide you. It has a bit of context around why this is important and some other points that are really important for us to be aware of. So please download it, email it to your colleagues so they feel empowered to address it, to have something tangible. You need something tangible to hold on to, to use in the classroom when you're coming up against these comments, because it can send us into fight or flight. For myself I know it has, like when I was pregnant, the kind of comments I got from the male students and I needed to make sure that I had in my head these prompts to be able to ground me, to keep me into my thinking brain and not my emotional brain that is going to react and going to fight, flight or freeze. So you are human and being on the receiving end of these comments is so tough. So having this as a resource is very, very helpful.

Speaker 1:

The next thing you can do is have a staff meeting on this. Use it as a resource. I give you permission to take this guide and distribute it to your staff and use it as a focus for the week for your professional learning. They're done bish bash bosh professional learning session planned for the week. You can use it in that way. Have an open, safe and honest discussion with your colleagues and staff around this. Even if you are a classroom teacher, a new teacher, speak to staff around like. Speak to your colleagues around the table around it. What have you noticed? What have you heard? What are the barriers for us addressing this? Why don't we say things more often? Male staff I am talking to you. Learn how to recognize and address these things.

Speaker 1:

Female staff if you notice that something is being ignored, have a professional conversation with them. It's not our responsibility to do that, but we need to be flagging up with them. I can't count the amount of times I have had a student say something in front of me and in I'm sorry in front of a male member of staff to me and nothing has been said. And this is not something that is unique to me. The comments that I received in my survey from female teachers about how their male colleagues had not supported them in the most challenging misogynistic situations. It's really disappointing. So please keep your ears to the ground, don't ignore it. Young boys need positive male role models. They need role models that are stronger than Andrew Tate's. Don't shy away from having the hard conversations, because these are the ones that are so damn important. There are also plenty of other resources and programs out there, depending on where you live, to support young boys. Finally, please just seek support when needed and if you need to swap out with another member of staff, please do that as well.

Speaker 1:

As I said before, confronting misogyny in the classroom is emotionally taxing, it is triggering, and it is crucial to prioritize your wellbeing and seek support when needed. If your interactions with students escalate, if they're met with resistance, it might be necessary for you to swap out with a colleague who may have a more established relationship with that young person or a senior member of staff. It really annoys me to have to say this because it feels really counterproductive, but maybe a male member of staff can be somebody that speaks to that student about why these comments are so problematic and being the role model of those values that we want to see from our young people. Of course, it's not an issue that will go away with a few chats, and I'm not suggesting that these discussions are magically going to change the views of our students. As I said, this is something that we've been battling for as long as I've been alive.

Speaker 1:

This is a bigger social piece that we all need to play our parts on, but the fact of the matter is that girls don't feel safe. They don't feel safe at school, they don't feel safe walking home at night and when they walk through the door, they aren't safe there either, because, statistically speaking, they are more likely to be assaulted and killed by a man in their home than out of it. And this is not something that we are explicitly dealing with in the classroom, but we are inadvertently dealing with and we really need to make sure that we are a force of positive change, and that starts by seeing all of these little things that we're coming into contact with as an opportunity, as I said before, an opportunity to address things, to educate, to connect with the young people, not to said before, an opportunity to address things, to educate, to connect with the young people, not to shame them, not to isolate them, because that is going to force them into a situation where they're going to escalate things, but to make sure we're trying our very best to support them, educate them, connect with them. It's all about the buy-in. If we don't have the buy-in, we've got nothing. So really focusing on how we can get buy-in for these discussions.

Speaker 1:

So I know this is a very heavy episode, but, my gosh, it is so damn important. If you have any questions, if you have any comments, please reach out. If you want to download the guide, please do so. It is in the show notes for you. I'll stick the link right at the top so you can't miss it. And if you do have discussions with your staff in your staff room, if you use the guide in any way, shape or form, please let me know about it. Let me know how it goes. It can be something that I can tweak and change and add to as time goes on. It is a free guide because it's so important for us to all feel empowered to address these things, so I didn't want to make it something that was paid. So please go and grab that now. Okay, lovely teachers, I am wishing you all of the best and I will see you in the next episode.

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Claire English

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