The Unteachables Podcast

#67: So you want to move away from punitive discipline? Here’s where to start.

• Claire English • Season 5 • Episode 67

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Welcome to today's episode where I dive deep into Pillar 3 of my upcoming book, "It's Never Just About the Behaviour." 

This pillar focuses on the importance of compassion in classroom management, but not in the way you might expect.

I will explore actionable, compassionate pedagogy that moves beyond traditional exclusionary practices.

In this episode, I cover:

  • How my challenging school experience shaped my teaching philosophy and the struggle of becoming the teacher I didn’t want to be and how I overcame it.
  • Differentiating discipline from punishment and consequences.
  • Steps to engage in meaningful conversations with students, and the importance of suitable consequences that follow Jane Nelson's three Rs of logical consequences: related, respectful, and reasonable.
  • Why being  compassionate in classroom management means more than just being kind; it's about equipping ourselves with effective, value-driven strategies.

Links and resources mentioned in the episode:

Download the free guide: 71 Behaviour Response Prompts
Join the waitlist for The Behaviour Club
Preorder my book, "It's Never Just About the Behaviour"  


Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!

TAKE THE QUIZ! What is your teacher type, and what does this reveal about your classroom management?

Join The Behaviour Club for no-fluff monthly training, a supportive community of like-minded educators, and done-for-you resources.

Browse my resources on TPT - All things SEL made with love.

The Low-Level Behaviour Bootcamp! - Strengthen your teaching presence and tackle low-level behaviours!

Purchase my book - ‘It’s Never Just About the Behaviour: A holistic approach to classroom behaviour management


Freebies and support:


Speaker 1:

So, yes, we need a strong why, but we need more than that. We need strong pedagogy that works. We need pedagogy that is underpinned by the compassion and kindness we value for our students and for ourselves. Oh hi, teachers, welcome to Unteachables podcast. Congratulations, you have just stumbled across the best free professional development and support you could ask for. I'm Claire English, a passionate secondary teacher, author, teacher, mentor and generally just a big behavior nerd, and I created the Unteachables podcast to demystify and simplify classroom management. I want this podcast to be the tangible support, community validation, mentorship all those pretty important things that we need as teachers to be able to walk into our classrooms feeling empowered and, dare I say it, happy and thrive, especially in the face of these really tough behaviors. So ready for some no-nonsense, judgment-free and realistic classroom management support. I've got your teacher friend, let's do this. Hello there, wonderful teachers, welcome back to another episode of the Unteachables podcast.

Speaker 1:

If you're coming into this series late, if you haven't heard the last two episodes podcast, if you're coming into this series late, if you haven't heard the last two episodes, I am talking about my book. It's never just about the behavior. It is currently on pre-order and it is available finally available at the start of next month, the start of July. If you're listening in real time, and to celebrate the release, I am doing a weekly episode based around each of the chapters of the book. I call them pillars. So if you're listening to this episode before the last two, consider going back to episode 65, but it isn't that much of a big deal. If you can't, they can stand alone. But before going into it, I just wanted to give you a bit of an unteachables update because at the moment, I have a hell of a lot happening behind the scenes, but if you want to work with me in any other capacity, there's nothing really happening on the surface anyway, and I have had a lot of requests for more, like how can I get a course from you, how can I get more coaching or more support. So I just wanted to give you an update of what is happening here at the Unteachables Academy. Obviously, I have the book coming, which is one big thing. That is something that is going to be available really soon. But I have something bigger coming. I am still going to be offering courses like That'll Teach them, which I've just had my 2024 cohort go through, and it's been absolutely amazing and last year I was running like standalone masterclasses, which again was so amazing. Hundreds of teachers have gone through those programs. But I was doing a lot of thinking this year around what is missing from what I do and if I really get down to the core of why I do this work and what is needed, what teachers need, what is it. So I've done a lot of I want to say, soul searching, but it's more like the unteachable searching around like what is actually going to be the most beneficial way to support teachers. And yes, these courses are so quality and my students have had great success. If you come through, that'll teach them, or one of the masterclasses, there's so much value in these courses. But but then what I've been thinking about, what is the next step?

Speaker 1:

I was thinking about the most transformative thing in my own practice and one of the things that has kind of shaped me into the teacher that I am is the beginning teacher group, the amazing Cara Rand. She was my head teacher of English at the time. Every single session we would get a standalone little workshop and something around that to implement. Then we'd go around like go off and kind of implement it, come back, talk about it. You know. Get support around it, share our struggles, share our successes. We were this little community and you know we shared our wins, we inspired each other. We had a moan about our struggles on the tough days and it was just everything that I needed at the time. And then, once I wasn't technically a beginning teacher anymore, I still needed that. And Cara did the same thing in our English faculty meetings and you know, we'd have a little workshop and around that workshop we'd have some tasks to do and some resources to implement. And, like, she did such an amazing job bringing together a community for us and for really allowing us to, like make incremental, incredible changes in our practice. I consider myself so lucky to have worked under somebody who prioritized that quality, actionable and meaningful support, and that really has become the model of what I want the unteachables to be.

Speaker 1:

On a larger scale, like teachers, need ongoing support and mentorship. A community, a village. So in August I've been working a lot behind the scenes on this you just haven't heard me talk about it yet. I am launching the behavior club to founding members. What is the behavior club?

Speaker 1:

Every single month I'm going to be delivering big on a new behavior focus. So, for example, the single month I'm going to be delivering big on a new behavior focus. So, for example, the first month is around what to do with really escalated behaviors in the lesson. The second month is about starting the year strong, because that's when the academic year starts for some of you. The third month that I'm going to be focusing on I'm going to be doing low-level behaviors and I'm going to be doing starting the lesson in a way that is really calm and conducive to a really productive lesson. So each month there are different focus areas that are going to support you to incrementally improve your practice and make really massive leaps in that one particular area.

Speaker 1:

So each month there's a masterclass where I step you through a bit of a game plan to reducing, responding to and resolving that particular behavior. If it's behavior focused, there's going to be a monthly um, the behavior club live coffee, chit chat sessions I think about Q and A's and pep talks and if you're trying to implement things from that month that it's not quite working, you can come in and talk to us about it. Uh, relevant resources and cheat sheets and action plans and templates. So just to give you an idea of what the kind of things I will be including in these resources. So for the de-escalation month there's going to be already a bunch of resources that's already going to be there when you join up. So it's not just an empty space with tumbleweeds. It's like the worst thing I could possibly imagine you signing up to something and there just being nothing.

Speaker 1:

So for that de-escalation month there's going to be prompt sheets for addressing behavior in the moment that follows my calm framework. There's a prompt sheet for resolving the behavior through a rest in resolution framework that I've developed. There's call prompts for contacting parents and navigating those sometimes awkward discussions. There's a whole toolbox of regulation strategies that are age appropriate for secondary and upper primary students. There's action plans for the following lesson for those students. There's a SEL lesson for students about flipping their lids and so much more. It is I'm delivering big on each month to make sure that if you need it to hardwire it, you've got it. So anything that's needed to take that topic or game plan into the real world and hardwire it, you've got it. So anything that's needed to take that topic or game plan into the real world and hardwire it, I have included it.

Speaker 1:

The next thing you're going to get within the club is your behavior club village. It's absolutely priceless. It's like a virtual staff room and everybody is on the same behavior page, which is the one thing that I hear a lot from you that people don't share those same values with you. So it's really hard to show up in your school, in your classroom, in the way that you want to. But in this club you can show up as your most authentic teacher self. You can engage in the topic of the week that I've got, you can shoot the breeze, you can ask for support, you can join a challenge, celebrate the wonderful things you're doing with like-minded teachers and of course, then every month that library is going to be growing. So everything's there at your fingertips. Just say one day like, oh, I'm really struggling with low-level behaviors. You can go through that vault and see, oh, in September there was a whole game plan around it. So I'm going to do that game plan, I'm going to focus on low-level behaviors for the next couple of weeks and I'm going to really start to nail these skills. So the club really will be there to be your village, to save you time, to give you resources, to be a sounding board, to be a support, just to make sure you have what you need to effectively, calmly and compassionately classroom manage. It'll also be super accessible and affordable, which was another thing that was really important to me. So the cost of a few coffees a month, especially for those 100 founding members who are going to get a discounted lifetime membership. To get on the list for the founding members, you can go to the-unteachablescom forward slash TBC waitlist Because, as I said, I'll be offering those 100 founding members discounted lifetime membership, but I'm only going to be offering those to the waitlist first.

Speaker 1:

I'm not going to be putting it out to everybody. I'll also put the link in the show notes too. Or, if you're listening to this, after August you can still come and join us in the club. Now, that's one really big thing that's coming. But if you do prefer to go through a standalone course, that is also very doable, so you'll still be able to enroll into that or teach them again. I'll be offering some of the courses separately from inside the behavior club. I'll be putting together some packages for school. So there's lots of things coming and like whatever works for you, you can get that level of support. So this is just the phase that I'm in right now where I'm doing all of that behind the scenes work. So when I do offer it, it's going to be the best quality that it can be, but that's why it looks like on the outside that I'm not offering any courses or anything like that at the moment. Okay, I spoke about that for way longer than I intended, so I'm very sorry. I hope that if you weren't interested, you were able to fast forward that, but I really wanted to make sure you had the information that you needed. If you did want that level of support, because that's why I'm doing it, it is for you and for all teachers who need that level of support.

Speaker 1:

Okay, let's get on to the meaty part of this episode, which is around pillar three of my book Be Compassionate. It's not what you think. You probably hear this and say, oh, here we go, some excuses for why students are behaving in a certain way. Or maybe you don't think that, maybe you listen to this podcast for long enough that that's not even entering your mind. But that is not what this pillar is about. Being compassionate does not mean hearing that as an excuse, and the opening of the pillar just reinforces that. And I open it by saying, for teachers to move away from harmful exclusionary practices, they need more than just a strong why and compassion for their students. They need tangible, actionable and compassionate pedagogy. And that's like really underpinning the whole book. Like teachers need tangible, actionable and compassionate pedagogy, they need pedagogy that works in the classroom.

Speaker 1:

I start this pillar by telling my own story. I had a very strong why. I had a very tough time at school. I, you know, I ended up being, uh like, almost like a psychologist, like a, a, a replacement psychologist, when I was 11 years old because my mum's mental health deteriorated. I had a really tough time in the whole of high school and I needed a teacher at that time to ask me if I was okay, because little by little, my behaviour deteriorated and all of a sudden I became this student that went from gifted and talented in primary school to you are a problem. You are primary school to you are a problem. You are challenging, you are just ruining this whole environment, and it was really, really isolating. So I needed a teacher just to say are you okay? But I didn't. I didn't get that and it became a really challenging place for me to be in.

Speaker 1:

However, even though I had those experiences in my own schooling, in my own life, when I became a teacher and I wanted to be the teacher. That was the opposite of that. I really wanted to be the teacher that a young person would need if they were in a similar situation than me, and I know that. You know, our young people are dealing with things that are much, much more difficult than what I've just expressed. But instead I became a teacher who was so overwhelmed by the volume and complexity of behavior and I turned into the exact teacher that I did not want to be. I yelled at students, I sent them out, I was shaming them publicly. I became the teacher that I did not want to be because I was so desperate. I had no strategies. I had no strategies to replace that. I didn't know what to do. I was so disempowered. These are called our inherited classroom management strategies.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, we need a strong why, but we need more than that. We need strong pedagogy that works. We need pedagogy that is underpinned by the compassion and kindness we value for our students and for ourselves, and I wanted to share just one thing with you today. So, lorraine Fox, I freaking love this quote, and she says the terms discipline and punishment and consequences are often used in discussion and consequently in practice, as if they're the same things. They're not. The literal meaning of the term to discipline is to teach. If we intervene with behavior with any other intent other than to teach, we are not administering true discipline. So I wanted to talk about that idea of discipline today, what that actually looks like, what that actually means.

Speaker 1:

And in the book I tell the story of a student who was incredibly vulnerable, that I taught, and he demonstrated some of the most dysregulated, volatile and violent behaviors that I've ever seen in a student. And about this student I write the following James needed discipline. However, there had already been detentions, had already been time spent at pupil referral units, police involvement for assaults and thefts what more could I dish out as his teacher that hadn't already been experienced? In vain, the discipline that he really needed. That true discipline was what Lorraine Fox summed up so beautifully in that quote.

Speaker 1:

It is that discipline works when we are working with the student, when we're connecting with the student, when we can like teaching them something and having these really meaningful discussions with them. So you know I love teaching my transformative talk process. It is similar to a restorative discussion, but I've adapted it to make it more teacher time friendly. So just say, if a student has done something that you know would warrant a consequence, would warrant some discipline, they need to understand what they've done, they need to be able to take accountability for that, and that's never going to happen if you slap on a consequence without going through this process, because you need an opportunity with that student for them to reflect, for them to own up to what's happened, for them to understand why that happened and to potentially learn how to do things differently the next time. And that's where having this really meaningful dialogue comes into it. I call it my transformative talk process and it goes through three different phases of a discussion to help guide the discussion, to get students to feel connected, to have students really explore the harm and to take accountability and reflect on that and then make a plan for potential change for the next time to restore the harm that was done.

Speaker 1:

So the three steps in a transformative talk. And, by the way, it is really similar to a restorative discussion, but I just adapt it to make it more teacher time-friendly, because restorative discussions do take a very long time and if you're having multiple of these a day. You need a structure to make them a little bit quicker, a little bit more time-friendly a day. You need a structure to make them a little bit quicker, a little bit more time-friendly. So, with the whole classroom management approach that I teach, I do it in the way that I do it. So, when we get to the restorative talk process but that's this transformative talk process this is only for the students who really really need the discussion to unpack the behaviors that have happened. So hopefully, if you are following along the same roadmap of classroom management, you're not having these big long discussions for behaviors that could have been resolved quite quickly in the moment. So I just wanted to make that really clear. That's why I only teach the transformative talk process in that whole like classroom management roadmap that I teach, because I want to make sure teachers aren't spending three hours a day having these discussions with students.

Speaker 1:

So the transformative talk process the first step is to tell our stories, get curious and check in. This part here is really getting the buy-in from students. Oh, you care about me. I feel validated, I feel heard, you're hearing what happened in the moment from my perspective, which is brilliant. Like that's what we need. We need to get buy-in. If we're not getting buy-in from our students in these discussions, they're not going to acknowledge the harm, they're not going to take accountability for their behaviors. So the first step is always James, what happened this lesson? Like, what was going on for you? How are you feeling at the time? Can I tell you what I saw from my perspective? You know, like, was anything happening outside of the lesson? Like getting curious about what might've been happening, just checking in with the young person?

Speaker 1:

The second step, once you've done that, is to then dig into exploring the harm that was caused and acknowledging the harm. So this is where we really need students to be taking accountability for the behaviors and taking ownership of those things. You know what? Yeah, I did have a really rough lesson because of that. I did throw things around the room and I really did disrupt the learning or whatever they've done, whatever happened in the lesson. So, exploring and acknowledging the harm if they don't get to this point, if they're not able to do that, I would put a pause in the convo and then come back to it later, because without that, they're not going to be able to make a really meaningful plan for resolution and change in the following steps.

Speaker 1:

So step three plan for resolution and change. So this is where you would make a plan for the following lesson. If there's any education that's needed, if there are any regulation strategies that are needed, if you need to, you know, ask what can I do differently in the next lesson? Do you need like a you know a template? Do you need some sentence starters? Do you need a timer? Do you need this strategy Like? This is where you discuss what can be done differently for the next lesson to hopefully support them with that behavior in future. So you're making a plan. You're getting them to repeat that plan back.

Speaker 1:

By the way, I've got a free um prompt guide. So I've got like 71 prompts for actually engaging in these discussions, which is probably going to be really helpful to look at alongside this episode. So if you want to grab a free copy of that, you can just head to the show notes and I've got a link there that I'll pop in and you can go and have a look at that. But this guides you through the whole kind of process, the dialogue that you need to use, from in the classroom in the moment to taking that conversation out of the classroom to then going through the step one telling our stories, exploring and acknowledging the harm, and then plan for restoration and change. So if you want to learn more about how to frame these conversations, if you want more examples of how to go about having these really meaningful, transformative talks with your young people, please go to the show notes, the episode description, and go and download that free guide.

Speaker 1:

Now you're probably thinking what about the consequences? Step three, that plan for resolution and change. That is where the consequences would come into it. But remember, we're trying to implement true discipline and true discipline does not happen without teaching and guiding. The consequences need to be suitable, they need to have buy-in from the student. So, going back to the student I was talking about, he'd already had everything on the list, he'd already had detentions, he'd already had suspensions, he's already had expulsions. Like he's gone from pillar to post. A detention that I give him isn't going to change things, like it's not going to have any impact. And that's the problem, because a lot of these strategies that we use, they're least effective on the students who need them the most for that change in behaviors. So if we want to give James or any student a consequence. It needs to follow a bit of a structure to make sure it's a consequence is appropriate. So Jane Nelson's three R's of logical consequences is something that I use and I find it really helpful when talking to other teachers about consequences.

Speaker 1:

So does it meet the following criteria Is it related to the behavior? So does it actually make sense? If the student's trashing the room, they're not going to be writing lines in the room next to that, while you clean up the room, they're going to be cleaning up the room themselves. Is it respectful? So, is it communicated in a way that is respectful to the student, that isn't dehumanizing? Is it a consequence that's making them stand in the corner with their back towards the rest of the class? That is shameful, that's isolating, that's not respectful. Or is it done so in a way that you know actually supports them to shift their behavior, to connect, to make, you know, make some really good changes?

Speaker 1:

And the third one is is it reasonable? So is it reasonable for me to expect a 13 year old boy to go and clean up a room? Hell, yes, it is, that is definitely reasonable. Would it be reasonable for me to expect a seven year old to um, screw screws into a table that they've um, they've broken without any support, maybe not. Maybe they need a little bit of support around that. So these are just really black and white examples. By the way, it gets a little bit more complicated when you think about things that aren't as tangible. But I just wanted to give you examples that were, that were tangible, that were easy to kind of cling on to. So is it reasonable for me to expect that, with their age, with their stage, with their abilities, with their skills, so you want them to be able to be successful in actually meeting that you know, resolving that and using that consequence?

Speaker 1:

So just say, I took James through the whole transformative talk process. I asked James what do you think needs to happen next time to make things right? He should be able to tell me. He should be able to say you know what? I need to go and speak to that person. I need to go and make sure they know that they're safe around me. I need to go and, you know, fix that chair. I need to go and do something. I should be able to have that student repeat back to me already what the consequence should be, because it should make sense to support them with that.

Speaker 1:

I usually have like a sheet in front of the student that has examples of consequences like engaging in the talk, making things right, fixing things, repairing things, like whatever it might be. I've got prompts there in front of them that they can use to help them. But the student should be able to pick one off that list that makes the most sense and then go and do that. When you have students that are able to say this is the consequence that suits what I've just done, that is magic, that is brilliant, that is pure buy-in and that's what we want to get to with the discipline that we're using. So going through that transformative process, talk process is so powerful if it's done right. And remember it shouldn't be us dictating to the student, it should be us facilitating their reflection. So it should be them really doing the talking and us kind of just facilitating that. So if you want to learn more about that transformative talk process, first of all go and download that free prompt guide that I told you about. I'll drop that link in the show notes. Or if you don't want to head to the show notes, you can go to the-unteachablescom forward slash prompts and you'll be able to download it there and in the book.

Speaker 1:

I also deep dive into the transformative talk process. I go through it step by step. I give the framework, I apply it to scenarios that I talk about. These scenarios actually go on throughout the entire book and kind of support you to see the whole classroom management approach in action, again with really tangible, actionable real world examples and prompts and everything that you need within the book to be able to take this into your classroom confidently and give it a good go. So that was my little insight into pillar three be compassionate.

Speaker 1:

And just remember that being compassionate in this holistic approach to classroom management doesn't mean, oh, remember our why and be a kind teacher, because remembering your why isn't enough. If having a strong why was enough, then I wouldn't have needed to go through that whole journey of having to learn what the hell was going on with classroom management. I would have been able to nail it from the start because I had a very, very strong why. What it is about is equipping ourselves with really tangible strategies that we can use in the classroom that are underpinned by the values that we want to see, and that is my main goal, because if you're listening to this podcast, you are the kind of teacher that wants to be able to, you know, be a teacher that you know the students need. You want to be compassionate, you want to be patient, you want to be kind, you want to be all of the things that you know your students need. But wanting it isn't enough. You need the action. So please give yourself grace and kindness and and just know that you are doing the best you can with the skills and the knowledge and all of the things and the resources you have at this current moment. So if you would like to learn more about my upcoming book it's never just about the behavior and even pre-order a copy or order it depending on when you're listening to this episode, you can head to the-unteachablescom forward slash book or find the link in the episode descriptions. That's the-unteachablescom forward slash book. And remember that the behavior club will be opening up next month. So for more information and to nab one of those founding member spaces, head to the-onteachablescom forward slash TBC waitlist and I'll pop that link in the show notes as well.

Speaker 1:

My husband has been working really hard on designing the logo and getting stickers printed and like a little kind of membership card printed and it looks. It looks so good. And I know it's not about the design and it's not about those things. It's about the actual quality of the work that's inside of the club. But this is just another example of being able to bring people together for, like you know, just in the same, the same mindset, that that's the same passions, the same values, and what a beautiful thing to be able to be a part of. So I can't flipping wait for this to start. Okay, wonderful teachers, have a lovely week and I will see you next time.

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Claire English

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