The Unteachables Podcast

#125: Q&A: Dealing with the class clown, when students gang up on you, and motivating unmotivated learners.

• Claire English • Season 6 • Episode 125

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This week I’m doing something a little different – answering your questions! I asked over on Instagram what you needed support with when it comes to behaviour, and wow… you delivered.

In this episode, I’m giving practical advice for three of the big ones:

  •   What to do when students gang up on you
  •   How to motivate learners who refuse to try
  •   How to manage the class clown without losing the room

These aren’t fluffy hypotheticals – they’re the actual struggles you’re navigating day to day, and I’m so excited to support you through them. And don’t worry, these are just the beginning – if you love this format, I’ll keep them coming!

Drop any questions to claire@the-unteachables.com or over on Instagram!

Have a question, comment, or just want to say hello? Drop us a text!

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Speaker 1:

Oh, hi there, teachers, welcome to the Unteachables podcast. I'm your host, claire English, and I am just a fellow teacher, a toddler mama and a big old behavior nerd on a mission to demystify and simplify that little thing called classroom management. The way we've all been taught to manage behavior and classroom manage has left us playing crowd control, which is not something I subscribe to, because we're not bouncers, we're teachers. So listen in as I walk you through the game, changing strategies and I mean the things that we can actually do and action in our classrooms that will allow you to lean into your beautiful values as a compassionate educator and feel empowered to run your room with a little more calm and, dare I say it, a lot less chaos. I will see you in the episode. Hello, lovely teacher, welcome back to the Teacher's Podcast.

Speaker 1:

I'm Claire English, I'm your host and today I am doing a Q&A episode, which I don't usually do. I don't think I've ever done a Q&A episode before. So instead of usually do I don't think I've ever done a Q&A episode before so instead of me picking the topic, you did. I put a little question box up on Instagram last week asking what you needed support with when it comes to behavior. I said what are you struggling with? How can I help you? And you delivered a bunch of questions that are just so good to talk through, for God. I've got enough material for multiple, multiple, multiple episodes, but in this episode, I'll just do three of those big questions. So the three questions are what to do when you feel like a couple of students are ganging up on you, how to motivate students who refuse to try, and one that I'm sure a lot of you are going to love listening to, which is how to deal with a class clown these honestly, there were so many of these questions, and I love these.

Speaker 1:

I think I'll love these episodes. I mean, I'm only just starting to record the first one, but I love these because they aren't fluffy, like hypotheticals or you know, things that are like just theory. These are day-to-day challenges that you're experiencing right now in your classroom, so, being able to kind of talk through these things and how I would approach them, or things to kind of reframe your ideas around it, or you know, I think it's really beneficial. Please remember, though, that I will be obviously answering them the best that I can, but I'll be doing this without any knowledge of the context around them. So please remember that it's very general advice when it comes to behavior and classroom management. My gosh, it is so nuanced. So for more in-depth advice, please, if you're in the behavior club, come and ask in the community, because that's where I'll always be able to kind of dig deeper into the context. And if you want to be in the behavior club, if you really want me as your mentor and get all of the things that come along with that, the behavior club is the space to get it. But we are currently at capacity. So if you want to join the wait list, you can head to the-unteachablescom forward slash TBC, which stands for the behavior club, and you can join the wait list there and I will let you know when doors reopen. I'm planning to reopen them in like August-ish, july, august. It just depends on how we get on with that. So, yeah, that is it.

Speaker 1:

But, as always, you know, when it comes to these questions, that I'll be answering. There's no judgment. You know we listen and we don't judge. There's no perfectionism, it is just support, it's all support. So let's dive in.

Speaker 1:

So the first question is I would love ideas to deal with two students ganging up on me. Well, this is a big one because we need to reframe that power dynamic, because when it comes to students ganging up on you, we really need to think about what that actually looks like. Often, when it's in the middle of the lesson, it's quite performative. Two students teaming up is usually about, you know, testing boundaries or meeting their fun need, or maybe meeting their power needs or you know, trying to look a certain way in front of the class or each other. They're probably feeding off each other and it's usually not about you, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1:

But please know that, even though there are certain reasons driving these behaviors from you know being their power and fun need to their love and belonging need, it does not excuse the behavior and these students need to understand that. Obviously, it can feel very intimidating in the moment, it can feel very embarrassing, it can feel very isolating. These type of behaviors bring up a lot for us as teachers, especially if we feel like it is in the middle of the lesson. And remember as well that I'm speaking about this with no other context other than ganging up on me, in inverted commas. So please know that I don't know the context and the severity of it. If it is something serious, please go and seek support within your school. So this is how I would deal with it.

Speaker 1:

I would always follow up individually and not as a pair, if you really want them to reflect and take accountability and show some empathy. This is always going to be better done one-to-one, where there's less pressure for them to continue that performance in front of their friend or act in a certain way in front of their friend, and also to make sure that you are addressing it in a way that they'll see as serious. It's not going to work just lecturing the students. Often when we start lecturing, lecturing is one of William Glass's disconnecting habits. So in discussions that you have with them, be sure to use language that encourages those students to reflect and take accountability.

Speaker 1:

And when we start, like when you're thinking about that kind of language, always ask yourself am I doing the talking or am I getting students to think about things and then do the talking themselves? Because we should be asking questions and not telling them things. And of course, there's time in the discussion for me to say you know, can I just explain from my point of view what's happening or can I just give you a different perspective? However, most of the time, it should be the student reflecting and talking and us facilitating that. So the kind of questions that you might like to ask are you know, why do you think I'm going to talk to you today?

Speaker 1:

Like, why might you think that you're here talking to me? Can you explain what was happening in the lesson? What might the problem be with that? Do you think that's hurtful or harmful when I have one person, you know, when you have one person standing here and you've got two people saying things that are rude or nasty or laughing, what might the problem be there? Like, why might that be problematic? I need to draw a line under this, because is it acceptable behavior, you know? Is that acceptable? Is it kind? Is it fair? No, thank you for acknowledging that. It can be classified as bullying. It can be classified as harassment or just being really unkind. You can say do we have to be best friends? No, of course not. I'm your teacher.

Speaker 1:

What can the plan be for next lesson? I'll be letting mom and dad know about the discussion we've had. If it happens again, do you think I need to follow this up? Yes, how do you think I might need to follow this up? What might be the next logical step. So all the time, like really asking these questions and getting that feedback from the students and coming to a resolution in that way, and then stay really consistent and firm in your response once you've made that plan and follow it up really promptly. If it happens again, make sure you're following up that plan. So that is initially how I would respond to that question. Around two students that seem to be ganging up on you, really drawing a line under it, having those discussions separately, making sure that parents and carers are in the loop. What I will say as well, though if you don't feel comfortable doing this, if the if ganging up is something more serious in the context that you're talking about, please make sure you're getting somebody to to have that discussion with you and the student and act as like a bit of a support for you or just like the middleman. What I also find hard is sometimes, when we're having these discussions with students and it's become really personal, it can be really hard for us to stay really measured when it comes to the discussions we're having. So just be really mindful of that. But that is the initial way that I would deal with that situation.

Speaker 1:

The next question that I got was how to motivate reluctant learners who refuse to give anything a go, which I know a lot of you out there are thinking yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I know I am experiencing the same thing so hard. They come in, they put their head down, they don't do anything. First up, let's start with this beautiful Ross Green quote, which is kids do well when they can, not when they feel like it, not when they want to impress you when they can. So when you've got a student who seems totally unmotivated, when they won't even try, the first thing I'd encourage you to do is reframe what you're seeing, because refusal isn't always defiance. Sometimes it's fear of failing again. Maybe it's embarrassment you know fear of embarrassment in front of their peers. Maybe it's confusion. They don't know how to ask you about what's going on. Maybe it's just their belief system telling them that they're dumb or lazy or not good enough. Maybe it's just a good old fashioned shutdown. Maybe there is a nervous system saying this doesn't feel safe, this doesn't feel good, so I'm just going to put my head down and not do any work. They are not opting out because they're lazy. Usually. Usually they're just protecting themselves and also laziness Think about the last time you were lazy.

Speaker 1:

Is it because you were feeling lazy or was it because you were feeling overwhelmed or overstimulated or exhausted and needed a break? Like I think we need to give ourselves and others a lot of grace for the moments where we, where we feel lazy. Maybe we're just stuck, maybe we don't know how to move forward. You know like I used to call myself lazy all of the time, but I was just in total shutdown mode. I just didn't know how to move forward when I was at university. So, anyway, there could be a whole variety of reasons why a student's opting out or not opting in at all, you know, to learning. So here's what I do Remember that I don't know the student that you're talking about or their full story and whoever's listening. I don't know the con, like you know the really complex context around this student. So here is my general advice.

Speaker 1:

My general advice is always to be very careful to push students and to try to motivate them by saying things like come on, it's not that hard. You know, it can be a little bit of an instinct sometimes, but usually it can shut them down further. So really thinking about creating some gentle on ramps to work in a way that feels really emotionally safe and doable, and they need to feel that they can't fail with it. They need to feel like it's really doable for them. So what that actually looks like in the moment in the classroom, the first thing could be just offering them one small step forward, you know, just to build some momentum, just to get some confidence up. So maybe they just write one sentence, maybe your job is to get them to write their name on the page and have some ownership over the work they're doing. Maybe they answer something verbally to you rather than writing it down, maybe they circle something like just the first small step, just something to get them on the on-ramp Like that's it, just one thing.

Speaker 1:

The next thing to try is, like a little gentle on-ramp is to scaffold the task, so break it into chunks, you know, provide a model, give some sentence starters and remove that overwhelm before they get to that point. So maybe you could just say to the student use one like pick a sentence starter and copy that down like anything to get them to put pen to paper Again, a really soft launch into the task itself. And you know you might say to me well, you're lowering the bar, you're lowering the expectations. I am not. I am offering an in to the work that we can then really build on. I'm trying to find something to leverage with that student so then I can start to build in some more supports for them. We can't do that without them even picking up a pen and getting started. If they write their name on the page, maybe that's success for them, that lesson. If they write down the sentence starter, I can go oh my gosh, like you did that really well, I can see that you really get it. That was a good choice of sentence starter.

Speaker 1:

Like, what might we do next after that sentence starter? What's one more step we can take? It's just an on-ramp. It's not to say that I will expect that forever from them. It's just something to get them started. The next one is to give them a couple of choices. So even if those options are like really small, like would you rather write that or tell me this tiny bit of autonomy, and just by you offering a couple of choices that both feel quite doable can feel huge when a kid feels stuck or powerless, and help them just to overcome that barrier and then make a choice to move forward and pick up a pen or say something to you or anything to get them to start to engage in the learning.

Speaker 1:

The next one is to maybe use a little bit of humor or playfulness to lower the stakes. You know, it's obviously not to make light of their struggle, but in a way that takes the pressure off. Like you know, I can write a weirder sentence than you Do. You want to try to beat me, or I need you to help me come up with the worst possible answer, like the most wrong answer that we can possibly come up with in this class. Can you do it? You know something, something, something, something that will engage them because, at the heart of it, this is not about the task, it's about safety. It's about creating conditions where trying feels okay and trying feels safe again, and safe and small isn't dumbing it down, it's just being emotionally intelligent when we're teaching. It's how we rebuild trust with kids who've learned and they've learned often the hard way that effort equals embarrassment or failure or whatever. It might be Okay.

Speaker 1:

So really just doing the little little things to get them on the on-ramp, you know, and if all they managed that day is starting the task, that's a win. If they let you sit beside them and talk it through with them, that's a win. And if they write two words when they usually write nothing, that's a huge win. And we celebrate those micro movements because that's how momentum starts and grows. And hey, if they don't respond right away like it doesn't mean you failed. It doesn't mean you failed, it just means that they just need a bit more time. So keep showing up with consistency, keep holding that door open. That's how you crack it, you know, that's how you get them on that on-ramp to get more engagement and to feel more confident in your lesson.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that was for the second question. Remember that everyone's going to be different. It's going to be different, it's going to be a different situation for everyone. But I hope that was helpful. And now the third and final question I'll be answering today is how to deal with a class clown, the one that says random things to get you and classmates to laugh. First up, acknowledge the need beneath the behavior, because this kind of behavior is rarely about being disrespectful, and I know that it can feel very disrespectful and it can feel frustrating, it can feel really annoying, but usually these behaviors are about that student trying to belong, trying to find significance, trying to find connection and yeah, it is often a connection bit, even if it's chaotic and inconvenient and all the things Kids who are the class clown are often saying please see me, please laugh with me, let me feel important even for a second.

Speaker 1:

And if we jump straight to punishment or shame with these students, we miss the need. And when that need is not met, that behavior will usually continue to ramp up. And that does not mean we let it slide. That just means we respond with understanding first rather than anger, because if you don't do that it'll make it harder. So don't battle the clown. Hold your boundary, but don't turn it into a power struggle. You don't need to out, funny them or outsmart them. You're not going to win, even if you feel like you've won. You've just kind of shamed a student into silence and that in the long run is going to cause, it's going to just make the behaviors manifest in different ways, so it's not going to help in the long run. You don't need to snap. If they snap, they'll feed off it, they'll have a bit of a laugh and that'll make you more frustrated. We'll make things harder and harder. But you do need to hold the line and you harder and harder, but you do need to hold the line and you do need to hold the line calmly and clearly and consistently.

Speaker 1:

The best thing to do is not to give it any airtime in the lesson. As much as humanly possible, just use your nonverbals as a cue that it was not the right time and then resume when the class is quiet. But sometimes you might need to say something and, by the way, when I'm talking about the nonverbals as a cue to kind of resume, so just say if you're in the middle of a discussion with the class, if you're giving teacher-led instructions and they're piping up, just simply pause. Hold your nonverbals, hold your credibility and that will be a very big nonverbal signal that you're not going to continue your discussion until that kind of you know stuff quiets down. But sometimes you might need and again, it's all to do with the context, it's all to do with your rapport If you've got a really good rapport with that student, you might need to say something like saving the energy for the playground, you know, like something like that.

Speaker 1:

Or I'm parking that one, let's go back to the learning, or, you know, keep that in your back pocket for later. We'll talk about it when it's more appropriate, or all right, that's the last one, everyone, you know, attention back on me. You know, attention back on me. You know we've had our laugh. Now it's learning mode, so you just it's going to have to be really responsive to the context and what's happening in the lesson.

Speaker 1:

I find that a non-verbal, like pause, will more than often do the trick. But if it's something that's continuing and I have got a good relationship with that student and a good relationship with the class, and if I know that it's going to help rather than hinder me to get back to learning, I'll say something like that, because you know it's it's a warm tone, but it's a firm tone with a little bit of a playful like I'm not mad but like let's steer this ship back to the learning kind of energy. And it's not about lecturing, it's just like a little gentle nudge back to what we were doing. And it's just really important to remember that we can't humiliate them because shame will fuel what's going on and again it's just not going to end well, like it's just going to keep getting harder and harder for you.

Speaker 1:

Another thing you can try with the class clown energy is actually kind of just lean into it a little bit Like obviously not in, not when it's being disruptive to the learning, but kind of give them a bit of a pro-social role. So like you know, right strength but wrong context, like it's okay to be funny and a bit silly, but it's not the right time right now. So maybe they can have a bit of a role in the class where they read out the vocab words with like silly voices or you know, you can give them a classroom job that involves movement or attention or you know, like something like that. Or ask them to help you with something that makes them feel trusted or something that will kind of channel that energy into something else, because you're not rewarding the disruption, you're just redirecting that energy somewhere. You're not saying like you're too much, you're just putting that energy somewhere else.

Speaker 1:

Because remember that underneath that class clown is a kid who of course wants to be seen and liked and included, and your calm presence with a little bit of gentle redirection and just a really big belief in their goodness. And I say that because it's really hard sometimes to remember when a student is being really disruptive and loud and out there, like remembering they're good kids and they're just trying to have a laugh and they're meeting their needs in the best way they can at the moment. And they're teenagers, they're impulsive and like there's just so much going on there with like so much going on there with, like the social roles and belonging and power and all those things that are going on within them and the way they're trying to meet their needs. So all of those things together can just be a game changer. So a calm presence, a gentle redirection, a belief in their goodness, you know, those things can just be such a game changer when dealing with students who are being a little bit disruptive and, you know, trying to be a bit of a class clown. So that is all for the Q&A this week.

Speaker 1:

I hope that at least one of those things was helpful or relevant to your situation or a challenge you're going through at the moment, and I will definitely bring some more of these episodes back. If you have a question and you would like me to answer it on one of these episodes, feel free to pop into my Instagram or my inbox. My Instagram is theunteachables and my email address is claire at the-unteachablescom. Come and ask me a question and I would love to try to feature it on one of these episodes.

Speaker 1:

I've got a fair few questions lined up, but I would love to try to get as many as possible, because I do think that these episodes and I'm like you know bringing it into the classroom, into real situations and showing you how it approached, I think that's really beneficial just to get it kind of, you know, feeling more real worlds, because it can be really hard on a podcast. I'm not there with you sitting beside you, mentoring you. So, yeah, as much as we can do with that, the better. Okay, wonderful teachers, until next week I will see you then. Take care. Bye for now.

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Claire English

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